Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[David McDonald via Marxism]

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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/its-time-for-black-people-to-break-the-two-party-system/
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Fred Murphy via Marxism]

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https://medium.com/@discomfiting/the-artful-anti-vax-smear-against-jill-stein-a82451945b48?source=linkShare-2211cee90f14-1471657305

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> From Jill Stein for President Social Media Team:
>
> Please share widely. There is a smear campaign going on against Jill Stein
> ...



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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Thomas via Marxism]

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August 19, 1856

If the strategy is to build a Left pole in US politics then I think the
best move would be to promote and build the Republican Party in "safe states" 
while
urging a reluctant Buchanan vote in swing states.

This would leave the Republican Party best suited to deal with what comes next
while avoiding a Filmore presidency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1856

T

-Original Message-
>From: Louis Proyect via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
>Sent: Aug 19, 2016 8:02 PM
>To: Thomas F Barton <thomasfbar...@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party 
>hack
>
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>
>The only problem is when you make your decisions based on what will 
>advance the goals of the DP, you lose credibility. In order to build a 
>left party, you have to show that you mean business. If Jill Stein had 
>not turned out to be such a feisty presidential candidate in 2012 and 
>again this year, there is good chance that the GP might have died.
>
>On 8/19/16 7:35 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>> If the strategy is to build a Left pole in US politics then I think the
>> best move would be to promote and build the GP in "safe states" while
>> urging a reluctant Hillary vote in swing states.
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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The only problem is when you make your decisions based on what will 
advance the goals of the DP, you lose credibility. In order to build a 
left party, you have to show that you mean business. If Jill Stein had 
not turned out to be such a feisty presidential candidate in 2012 and 
again this year, there is good chance that the GP might have died.


On 8/19/16 7:35 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:

If the strategy is to build a Left pole in US politics then I think the
best move would be to promote and build the GP in "safe states" while
urging a reluctant Hillary vote in swing states.

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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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If the strategy is to build a Left pole in US politics then I think the
best move would be to promote and build the GP in "safe states" while
urging a reluctant Hillary vote in swing states.

This would leave the Green Party best suited to deal with what comes next
while avoiding a Trump presidency. Clay is correct that Trump is not just
another candidate, he has changed the game by opening a new level pf
extremism and racism in American politics that was, until very recently,
unacceptable in either party.

But while we shouldn't let him win, we should also recognize that his
appeal lies only in certain demographics and we can, in fact, rest assured
that he will not take dark blue states. That and the fact that Hillary will
likely enable worse Trumps going further.


-- 
- Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> The current candidate fostered the rise of the
> prison-industrial complex with obvious results.
>

I'm willing to bet the black women in the Gallup poll know about the
prison-industrial complex in a very personal way. Do you think telling them
what they already know will convince them to switch their votes from
Clinton to Stein even if it put the much more racist evil in the WH?



Clay Claiborne, Director
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

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African Americans shifted by the 1940s to support the Democratic Party,
though it spawned the KKK and remained pretty closely attached to it well
into the 1960s.  The current candidate fostered the rise of the
prison-industrial complex with obvious results.
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Here's the thing Manuel,

I'm not the only black person that fears the White House falling to an
administration openly aligned with the KKK:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/07/19/black-woman-are-most-worried-about-the-outcome-of-the-2016-election-poll-finds/

> Nearly 3 in 4 African American women are “strongly” afraid of what will
> happen if their candidate loses the presidential election, a recent Gallup
> poll has found.
> 
>  And
> polling shows that their candidate is not Donald Trump.
>
> So never mind that I may be a chump, a political chump and dumb enough to
walk around and a traitor to my race besides, you and Louis need to address
these black women and their fears, you need to be able to win them to your
position. You need to convince them to join the Green Party and vote for
Jill Stein instead Hillary Clinton, unless you are reconciled that the
Green Party will remain a white party, and I don't think the approach you
are using with me will work with them.

I recognize that you face a big hurdle. Black women vote at a high rate, so
if you are successful, it will probably mean their worst fears will be
realized. It is very important that you convince them that they won't be
voting against their own best interest. This is important, not only to win
their votes for Stein, but to convince them that the Green Party is not a
force working to make their worst fears come true.

I see 2 approaches to this problem and I see both are under development
here.

1) Trump isn't all that bad. This also has 2 approaches:
a) Trump is just another GOP not KKK, nothing new to fear here
b) KKK has always been in WH, nothing new to fear here

Frankly, I don't see that working, The gut response of most black people to
what is happening is that it is new and very dangerous, and I can already
see the effects of the rise of Trump's white supremacy in the recent
elections for the Venice Neighborhood Council. There are a lot of little
effects afoot already. I've been closely following presidential elections
since 1964 and I know you'll not going to convince me that 2016 is just
another election year with regards to white supremacy, so good luck with
that approach with the masses.

2) Its in the bag for Clinton anyway so feel free to vote your conscience.
Louis, floated this line earlier. I consider it very dangerous because
while it admits the problem with Trump winning, it disarms people and makes
it more likely he will win. Regardless of what the polls say [capitalist
polls], I think it would be very foolish to be declaring "Mission
Accomplished" with regards to defeating Trump's bid to capture state power
in mid-August, Anything can happen - a "terrorist" attack or other
happenings could seriously change the political landscape, elections can be
stolen [ I avoid using "rigged" because its currently so associated with
Trump agitation. ] , and especially for us on the Left, I think its
important to point to the possibility of an extra-legal bid for power. Not
to belabor that point but we know Trump is building some kind of militia
and it could have billions [not just Trump money] behind it. The closer the
vote, the easier each of these alternative scenarios becomes.

What I think this situation calls for is a Left leadership and a Left party
that exposes the capitalist nature of both parties but recognizes that in
2016 there is a real danger that the neo-liberal establishment that has run
the executive in the United States since before WW2 is in danger of being
superseded by a much more openly fascist and white supremacist regime.

It endorse the view of those black women that this is the main danger to be
defeated in 2016 and it supports their decision to vote for Clinton, not
because we believe her lies but because we must vote strategically in this
election to defeat this white supremacist assault.

That is an approach I think will work. Asking them to ditch voting against
Trump to vote for someone who really doesn't have her act together is not
going to win many supporters.


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 8/19/16 12:17 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:

Louis,

Just to be clear. If Trump would win because Clinton was one vote short,
would you still refuse to vote for her?




I don't deal in hypotheticals.

More to the point, I am for a left party in the USA. I have been ever 
since I left the Trotskyist movement in 1979. I worked closely with 
Peter Camejo in 1981 to start something called the North Star Network 
that would serve as a catalyst for such a party.


Peter ended up as a key figure in the Green Party and my interest in the 
Greens has a lot to do with being Peter's disciple for all practical 
purposes. So you are talking about a political history going back over 
35 years.


I continue along this path, as my involvement with the North Star 
website would indicate. That supersedes just about everything, including 
Stein and Baraka's unwise statements on Syria, his much worse than hers.


The left party itself is not the vanguard party that will be necessary 
to overthrow American capitalism. It is simply a step in that direction. 
Right now American electoral politics is a wholly-owned subsidiary of 
the Democratic-Republican Party--two factions of the same bourgeois 
party. You can get an idea of how this operates from simply observing 
that Koch brothers operatives served on the governing body of the 
Democratic Leadership Council--the corporatist entity that was designed 
to suppress all liberal tendencies in the DP. Hillary Clinton, Bill 
Clinton, Al Gore, Joseph Lieberman, Sam Nunn and Dick Gephardt were key 
figures in the DLC. So what kind of electoral system do we have when the 
Koch brothers have a role in the DLC? The whole thing is a sham.


Finally, isn't it time to recognize that the Trump campaign is toast? 
The numbers are devastating:


NY Times, August 19 2016
Donald Trump’s Crucial Pillar of Support, White Men, Shows Weakness
By JEREMY W. PETERS

Donald J. Trump’s support among white men, the linchpin of his 
presidential campaign, is showing surprising signs of weakness that 
could foreclose his only remaining path to victory in November.


If not reversed, the trend could materialize into one of the most 
unanticipated developments of the 2016 presidential campaign: That 
Hillary Clinton, the first woman at the head of a major party ticket and 
a divisive figure unpopular with many men, ends up narrowing the gender 
gap that has been a constant of American presidential elections for decades.


Surveys of voters nationwide and in battleground states conducted over 
the last two weeks showed that Mr. Trump was even with or below where 
Mitt Romney, the Republican Party nominee four years ago, was with white 
men when he won that demographic by an overwhelming 27 percentage points.


For Mr. Trump, who has staked much of his legitimacy as a candidate on 
his strength in the polls, the numbers are a dose of cold, dangerous 
math. If he does not perform any better than Mr. Romney did with white 
men, he will almost certainly be unable to rally the millions of 
disaffected white voters he says will propel him to the White House.


All along, one of the central questions of the election has been whether 
there are enough white men who will turn out to vote to lift Mr. Trump 
to victory. And there may be enough, demographers and pollsters said. 
But for now it appears that after a ceaseless stream of provocations, 
insults and reckless remarks, Mr. Trump has damaged himself 
significantly with the one demographic that stands as a bulwark to a 
Clinton presidency.


“If you set out to design a strategy to produce the lowest popular vote 
possible in the new American electorate of 2016, you would be 
hard-pressed to do a better job than Donald Trump has,” said Whit Ayres, 
a pollster who has advised Republican presidential and Senate candidates 
for more than 25 years. “This is an electoral disaster waiting to happen.”


There are still nearly three months before Election Day, ample time to 
shift the dynamics of the race. But the question that Republicans inside 
and outside the Trump campaign are asking is whether or not the damage 
Mr. Trump has caused himself over the last few weeks is irreparable.


Interviews with voters found that Mr. Trump’s increasingly outlandish 
behavior was rubbing many in his key voting bloc the wrong way. “I liked 
Trump until he opened his mouth,” said Phil Kinney, a retired middle 
school administrator and a Republican from Bethlehem, Pa. The recent 
string of attacks Mr. Trump has unleashed, particularly his criticism of 
the family of a Muslim soldier killed in Iraq, left Mr. Kinney 
disappointed. Faced with the choice of voting for Mr. 

Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Louis,

Just to be clear. If Trump would win because Clinton was one vote short,
would you still refuse to vote for her?


Clay

Clay Claiborne, Director
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Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
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Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 2:36 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

 I will vote for Hillary Clinton on the same day I will hail the Chinese
> bureaucrats.
>
> That is it.
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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From the most outspoken supporter of nuclear power on the left, no less.

On 8/18/16 10:08 AM, DW via Marxism wrote:

I would argue that this by itself is not most relevant aspect of the Stein
campaign. I'd say it is a problem, however.

David Walters

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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 8/18/16 11:20 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote:

But I was greatly saddened this morning to see Louis uncritically present
her claim that she is a "peace candidate."

What color is the swamp?


I don't need this demagogic race-baiting bullshit from either Clay or 
Joaquin. The next time I get even a whisper of it from them or anybody 
else, I will begin unsubbing people. After 18 years of moderating 
Marxmail, I have learned to figure out when people are tired of the 
list. It is usually when words like "swamp" or "petty bourgeois" are 
thrown around, or like when Walter Lippmann used to bait people for not 
supporting the Chinese Communist Party because we were in "comfortable" 
imperialist countries. I will vote for Hillary Clinton on the same day I 
will hail the Chinese bureaucrats.


That is it.
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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This is far from Jill Stein's biggest problem but it does speak to her
integrity. This is similar to the way Trump supports the worst CTs on his
side with the odd comment that definitely isn't lost on them.

But I was greatly saddened this morning to see Louis uncritically present
her claim that she is a "peace candidate."

What color is the swamp?

Anyway this is my latest on Jill Stein:
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/how-jillstein-tweets-for-trump.html

> Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein knows that since she doesn't
> stand a snowballs chance in hell of being elected, the key to getting
> progressives to vote for her is to convince them that it really doesn't
> matter whether Clinton or Trump is our next president. The problem is, that
> while Hillary Clinton may be just another Democrat, Donald Trump is the
> leader of a while supremacist movement of birthers and more that has
> hijacked the Republican party. While it is true that Hillary Clinton, like
> Barack Obama, supports the fundamental policies that support the white
> supremacists system, Donald Trump represents a much more aggressive form of
> white supremacy and if he is elected, it will be almost exclusively by
> white voters who supported this campaign that is making white chauvinism
> its center piece. These are critical realities of election year 2016 in the
> United States that Jill Stein's campaign is seeking to obscure in its very
> dangerous claim that it really doesn't matter if Donald Trump becomes our
> next POTUS. Hillary Clinton may be a continuation of Barack Obama, but
> Donald Trump is not another Mitt Romney. Dr. Jill Stein thinks the campaign
> she ran in 2012 should be rerun in 2016. Once again the Left is in danger
> of applying an old strategy to a new situation without really thinking it
> through.


See also:
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/huffpost-item-shows-how-jill-stein.html
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/meet-green-partys-jill-stein-putin-sock.html



Clay Claiborne, Director
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(310) 581-1536

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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

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Louis does a poor job here of defending Stein. The issue was never really
about being anti-vaccinations, it was about her pandering to those who do.
Here as my initial response:

"Louis, she perhaps does believe what she says but she is clearly
*catering* to anti-vaxxers. This is the point of most of the blogs and
essays written about her position. The fact that she even brings up in the
paragraph you quoted her from is designed to placate the anti-vaxx
activists endemic in the Green Party today. Arel is essentially correct:
Stein is pandering here and it’s obvious and *beneath* her as a MD. The
bringing up of thimerosal is a case in point, which is no longer used, and
with it’s *removal* there has been zero effect on fetal brain development
for the better. In other words, it was a scare story from the get go.
Thimerosal is methylmercury NOT the kind of mercury we see coming out of
coal plant effluent or used in instruments which called ethylmercury. It is
good to question, but one has to look at the conclusions science has
delivered.

On her comment that is extracted about trusting the regulatory boards…and
directly associating it with the issue of vaccines is totally disingenuous
on her part: she fails to point out that it appears beyond a shadow of a
doubt that these same regulatory boards with regards to vaccines were 100%
correct and the doubters were 100% incorrect. And she knows this so why
does she bring it up? It’s called pandering to the anti-science wackos in
her milieu."

[Even the mercury charge was proven false...thimerosal was never proven
un-healthy was removed as a vaccination preservatvie *soley* due to public
(meaning, "no data") pressure groups.

By not coming full force in supporting, *specifically* the MMR vaccine,
which has been proven 100% safe she only reinforces the anti-vaxxers
criminal campaign again vaccinations. This is seen throughout the
discussion of 80 or so comments by defenders of the anti-vaxx campaign that
have infected Louis's essay...in support of Louis' defense of Stein.

She panders to the anti-wifi lunactic fringe of the Green Party as well. I
would, in fact, urge everyone to look at those links provided by the
initial post here on her. I have zero doubt this is for the benefit of
Clinton. But it is Stein who handed this issue to the Clinton supporters on
a silver platter.

I would argue that this by itself is not most relevant aspect of the Stein
campaign. I'd say it is a problem, however.

David Walters
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

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On 8/18/16 1:45 AM, A.R. G wrote:

Yes but why share Naiman's e-mails about Stein unless there is a
rebuttal provided?


I have answered them on my blog:

https://louisproyect.org/2016/08/01/is-jill-stein-anti-science/
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Yes but why share Naiman's e-mails about Stein unless there is a rebuttal
provided?

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> From Jill Stein for President Social Media Team:
>
> Please share widely. There is a smear campaign going on against Jill Stein
> by Clinton-Democrats. Below is an example of how it is done from Robert
> Naiman who claims to be a peace activist but is supporting the war hawk,
> Hillary Clinton, and smearing the only real peace candidate, Jill Stein.
> Here is the email he is sending out to people urging them to slander Jill
> with statements he knows are false. As I said -- please share this widely
> so Naiman and the Clinton campaign are exposed.
>
> From: Robert Naiman
>
> If you have a lot of Facebook friends, you may have recently noticed a
> high level of activity on your Facebook feed by Jill Stein acolytes.
>
> If so, you may find the following links useful to throw them off their
> game. No warranty, express or implied. You don't have to prove that Jill
> Stein is an anti-science conspiracy theorist. You just have to say, "There
> are unanswered questions about whether Jill Stein is an anti-science
> conspiracy theorist."
>
> There's Nothing Green About Jill Stein's Vaccine Stance
> http://www.forbes.com/…/theres-nothing-green-about-jill-s…/…
>
> Jill Stein on vaccines: People have ‘real questions’
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/…/jill-stein-on-vaccines-pe…/
>
> Jill Stein Promotes Homeopathy, Panders On Vaccines
> http://www.patheos.com/…/jill-stein-promotes-homeopathy-pa…/
>
> Jill Stein Worries Wi-Fi Is Dangerous For Kids
> http://www.patheos.com/…/jill-stein-worries-wi-fi-is-dange…/
>
> ===
>
> Robert Naiman
> Policy Director
> Just Foreign Policy
> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> nai...@justforeignpolicy.org
> _
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-- 
- Amith
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