Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2017-01-08 Thread Fred van Stappen
> iassistiveserver.doenter() is called by the widgets after activating.

Hello Martin.

As usual, your code works perfectly.
sak_mse + ideU are working (IMO) perfectly too.

Thanks.

Fre;D

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2017-01-05 Thread Fred van Stappen
> message widgets have the asf_message-flag

> set in iassistiveclient.getassistiveflags() result.

Ha, I did not use getassistiveflags(), I will study it.

>> Is it with one of this actions ? :
>iassistiveserver.doenter() is called by the widgets after activating.

OK, perfect.

Many thanks.

Fre;D
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2017-01-04 Thread Martin Schreiber
On Wednesday 04 January 2017 23:14:11 Fred van Stappen wrote:
> Hello Martin.
>
> Some comment after test:
>
>  if (Sender is tshowmessagewidget) then ...
>
> =>  Error: Identifier not found "tshowmessagewidget" Fatal: Compilation
> aborted
>
> OK, replaced by:
>
>  if (Sender is tmessagewidget) then ...
>
> => Compiles ok.
>
You should not need the class type, message widgets have the asf_message-flag 
set in iassistiveclient.getassistiveflags() result.

> But when, for example, a error message is sent, I do not understand how the
> assistive interface works:
>
> Is it with one of this actions ? :
>
>   procedure doenter(const sender: iassistiveclient);

iassistiveserver.doenter() is called by the widgets after activating.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2017-01-04 Thread Fred van Stappen
Hello Martin.

Some comment after test:

 if (Sender is tshowmessagewidget) then ...

=>  Error: Identifier not found "tshowmessagewidget" Fatal: Compilation aborted

OK, replaced by:

 if (Sender is tmessagewidget) then ...

=> Compiles ok.

But when, for example, a error message is sent, I do not understand how the 
assistive interface works:

Is it with one of this actions ? :

  procedure doenter(const sender: iassistiveclient);
  procedure doitementer(const sender: iassistiveclient;
const items: shapeinfoarty; const aindex: integer);
  procedure doitementer(const sender: iassistiveclient;
 const items: menucellinfoarty; const aindex: integer);
  procedure clientmouseevent(const sender: iassistiveclient;
  const info: mouseeventinfoty);
  procedure dofocuschanged(const oldwidget,newwidget: iassistiveclient);
  procedure dokeydown(const sender: iassistiveclient;
const info: keyeventinfoty);
  procedure doactionexecute(const sender: tobject; const info: actioninfoty);
  procedure dochange(const sender: iassistiveclient);
  procedure docellevent(const sender: iassistiveclientgrid;
  const info: celleventinfoty);

If no, could it be possible to add something like:
  procedure domessageshow(const sender: iassistiveclient)

?

Thanks.

Fre;D






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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2017-01-04 Thread Martin Schreiber
On Friday 16 December 2016 13:04:24 Martin Schreiber wrote:
> On 12/16/2016 12:49 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> >> It does not happen for me. Are you sure it is not the window manager?
> >>
> >> Or do you mean the mainmenu raise function? It is disabled if the window
> >> is
> >>
> >> in "background" mode (the arrow down button in dock frame).
> >
> > Hello.
> >
> > Could you take a look at the video
> > https://sites.google.com/site/fredvsbinaries/mse_focus.mp4 ? When the
> > mouse move on the main menu, the form of the main menu take the focus.
> >
> > I would prefer that nothing append, like it was a normal window.
> > And if I want focus, I will click on the menu-form...
> >
> > Is it possible to disable it ?
>
> Activate the small arrow down button on the right. I'll add an option to
> disable the raise function if it does not exist already. Later, first I
> must finish DBus support.
>
> Martin


On Friday 16 December 2016 13:04:24 Martin Schreiber wrote:
> On 12/16/2016 12:49 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> >> It does not happen for me. Are you sure it is not the window manager?
> >>
> >> Or do you mean the mainmenu raise function? It is disabled if the window
> >> is
> >>
> >> in "background" mode (the arrow down button in dock frame).
> >
> > Hello.
> >
> > Could you take a look at the video
> > https://sites.google.com/site/fredvsbinaries/mse_focus.mp4 ? When the
> > mouse move on the main menu, the form of the main menu take the focus.
> >
> > I would prefer that nothing append, like it was a normal window.
> > And if I want focus, I will click on the menu-form...
> >
> > Is it possible to disable it ?
>
> Activate the small arrow down button on the right. I'll add an option to
> disable the raise function if it does not exist already. Later, first I
> must finish DBus support.
>
Actually the option exists since 2007. ;-)
Please disable tmainmenu.options mao_activate, default off.
Although the name is wrong, it does not activate or focus the mainmenu but 
raise the window if the mouse is in menu area. After leaving the menu area 
the original Z-order will be restored. The reason is that one can see and 
click the whole menu without the need to click an arbitrary menu item before 
which could trigger an action if there is no submenu.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2017-01-03 Thread Fred van Stappen
>> Must be implemented in the constructed widget. I'll take a look.

>> git master ee58e5550dc700a84493bf914742262aeadb7be2 tshowmessagewidget 
>> reports
>> caption and text by iassistiveclient.getassistivecaption() and 
>> getassistivetext().

Excellent. I will try this asap.

Many thanks and HNY.


Fre;D
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2017-01-03 Thread Martin Schreiber
On Wednesday 14 December 2016 17:38:58 Martin Schreiber wrote:
> On 12/14/2016 12:31 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> > I search for a way to assist showmessage().
> >
> > Do you have some idea ?
>
> Must be implemented in the constructed widget. I'll take a look.
>
git master ee58e5550dc700a84493bf914742262aeadb7be2 tshowmessagewidget reports 
caption and text by iassistiveclient.getassistivecaption() and 
getassistivetext().

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-17 Thread Fred van Stappen
>> I suspect conflicts with some actions...

>>  for example dofocuschanged() conflicts with doenter"
> Please explain.

OK, I will (try to) explain with example. ASAP.

 (Huh, how to get the name of the tab of the activepageindex ?)
>>> In "doenter"
>> Huh, I have try but strangely it works for some tabwidget and not for other.
>> Like I write before, I suspect conflict with dofocuschanged() conflicts with 
>> doenter"
> Please explain.

OK, I will (try to) explain with example. ASAP.

>> How to keep the directory previously selected in a Tfilenameedit ?
>> See video mse_file.mp4.
> Can not reproduce.

OK, I will (try to) explain with example. ASAP.

>> How to jump to other group with the keyboard ?
> Please disable ow_parenttabfocus in nozorderenable.optionswidget and 
> universal_path.optionswidge .

OK, thanks i will try this ASAP.

By the way, the new release of ideU is ready to download:

https://github.com/fredvs/ideU/releases/tag/1.4.0

For voice assisted, please read README_voice_assisted.TXT.

All comment and suggestion are highly appreciated.

Fre;D

PS: Thanks Martin.
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-17 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/17/2016 04:13 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> 
>>> Ttabwidget (and fix of dofocuschanged() that gives not assigned sender) ?
> 
>> Probably it is as designed. If dofocuschanged() fires the first
>> time "oldwidget" is nil, if it fires the last time "newwidget" is nil.
> 
> I suspect conflicts with some actions...
>  for example dofocuschanged() conflicts with doenter"
> 
Please explain.

> 
>>> (Huh, how to get the name of the tab of the activepageindex ?)
>> In "doenter"
> 
> Huh, I have try but strangely it works for some tabwidget and not for other.
> Like I write before, I suspect conflict with dofocuschanged() conflicts with 
> doenter"
> 
Please explain.

> Other thing.
> 
> How to keep the directory previously selected in a Tfilenameedit ?
> 
> When clicking on it, the previous directory is replaced by the original 
> hardcoded value.
> 
> See video mse_file.mp4.
> 
Can not reproduce.

> Other thing.
> 
> How to jump to other group with the keyboard ?
> 
> See video mse_keynavigate.mp4, the group "system layout" is not selected and 
> in group "sakit" only the directory is selected but not the checkbox.
> 
> PS: Taborder was correctly set.
> 
Please disable ow_parenttabfocus in nozorderenable.optionswidget and
universal_path.optionswidge .

Martin


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-16 Thread Martin Schreiber
On Friday 16 December 2016 18:05:12 Fred van Stappen wrote:
>
> By the way, do you have plan for assisted raised-error-message and

Yes, later.

> Ttabwidget (and fix of dofocuschanged() that gives not assigned sender) ?

You wrote:

> But dofocuschanged() has problem. You must use:
>
> if (assigned(oldwidget)) and  if (assigned(newwidget))   then
> ...

Probably it is as designed. If dofocuschanged() fires the first 
time "oldwidget" is nil, if it fires the last time "newwidget" is nil.

> When it works, I use:
> thename := 'tabwidget, ' + Ttabwidget(Sender).Name + ' , active index, ' +
>    inttostr(Ttabwidget(Sender).activepageindex)
>
We could add 
"iassistiveclient.getassistiveitemindex(): int32" and maybe 
"getassistiveitemcount(): int32" and 
"getassisitiveitem(const aindex: int32): iassistiveclient"

> (Huh, how to get the name of the tab of the activepageindex ?)

In "doenter" 
"
 thepagename:= sender.getassistivename();
 thepagecaption:= sender.getassistivecaption().
"

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-16 Thread Fred van Stappen
>> Is it possible to disable it ?

> Activate the small arrow down button on the right

Huh, ok but that way the window stay always background, even clicking on it... 
;-(

> I'll add an option to disable the raise function if it does not exist already.

Super, thanks.

> Later, first I must finish DBus support.

Ok, there is no fire.

By the way, do you have plan for assisted raised-error-message and Ttabwidget 
(and fix of dofocuschanged() that gives not assigned sender) ?
If no plan now, no problem, I will release ideU 1.4.0 (with much better 
assistive).
If you have plan for nearly now, I will wait for your commits before release 
ideU.

Thanks.

Fre;D


Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-16 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/16/2016 12:49 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
>> It does not happen for me. Are you sure it is not the window manager?
> 
>> Or do you mean the mainmenu raise function? It is disabled if the window is
> 
>> in "background" mode (the arrow down button in dock frame).
> 
> Hello.
> 
> Could you take a look at the video 
> https://sites.google.com/site/fredvsbinaries/mse_focus.mp4 ?
> When the mouse move on the main menu, the form of the main menu take the 
> focus.
> 
> I would prefer that nothing append, like it was a normal window.
> And if I want focus, I will click on the menu-form...
> 
> Is it possible to disable it ?
> 
Activate the small arrow down button on the right. I'll add an option to
disable the raise function if it does not exist already. Later, first I
must finish DBus support.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-16 Thread Fred van Stappen
>It does not happen for me. Are you sure it is not the window manager?

>Or do you mean the mainmenu raise function? It is disabled if the window is

>in "background" mode (the arrow down button in dock frame).

Hello.

Could you take a look at the video 
https://sites.google.com/site/fredvsbinaries/mse_focus.mp4 ?
When the mouse move on the main menu, the form of the main menu take the focus.

I would prefer that nothing append, like it was a normal window.
And if I want focus, I will click on the menu-form...

Is it possible to disable it ?

Thanks.

Fre;D


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-15 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/15/2016 09:02 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
>>> By the way, something very annoying: message from raised exception are not 
>>> totally modal and not totally to front.
> 
>>> So sometimes it is hidden by other forms and you do not understand what 
>>> append.
>> You probably should not use --NOZORDERHANDLING.
> 
> Maybe...
> 
> But I have to confess that I do not like the automatic-focusing of mse (even 
> with  use of --NOZORDERHANDLING).
> Is it possible to have a totally neutral focusing ? Even using 
> --NOZORDERHANDLING, passing with mouse on form that does not have focus 
> change the Z order.
> 
It does not happen for me. Are you sure it is not the window manager? Or
do you mean the mainmenu raise function? It is disabled if the window is
in "background" mode (the arrow down button in dock frame).

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-15 Thread Fred van Stappen
>> By the way, something very annoying: message from raised exception are not 
>> totally modal and not totally to front.

>> So sometimes it is hidden by other forms and you do not understand what 
>> append.
> You probably should not use --NOZORDERHANDLING.

Maybe...

But I have to confess that I do not like the automatic-focusing of mse (even 
with  use of --NOZORDERHANDLING).
Is it possible to have a totally neutral focusing ? Even using 
--NOZORDERHANDLING, passing with mouse on form that does not have focus change 
the Z order.

Thanks.

Fre;D
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-15 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/15/2016 04:29 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:

> By the way, something very annoying: message from raised exception are not 
> totally modal and not totally to front.
> So sometimes it is hidden by other forms and you do not understand what 
> append.
> 
You probably should not use --NOZORDERHANDLING.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-15 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/14/2016 09:45 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> 
> 
>>> I search for a way to assist showmessage().
>>> Do you have some idea ?
> 
>> Must be implemented in the constructed widget. I'll take a look.
> 
> OK, super. But mainly for the message of errors-waring system.
> 
I think iassistiveclient.getassistiveflags() should provide more
information by extending assistiveflagsty (asf_textedit,
asf_graphicedit, asf_textdisp, asf_graphicdisp, asf_hasvalue,
asf_window, asf_container, asf_message, asf_errror, asf_warning,
asf_hint...).
Also useful could be "iassistiveclient.getassistivevalue(): variant" or
also "setassistivevalue(avalue: variant)" for speech recognition software.
Using "variant" type implies to link in the relatively big variants unit.

Do you have recommendations?

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-14 Thread Fred van Stappen


>> I search for a way to assist showmessage().
> >Do you have some idea ?

> Must be implemented in the constructed widget. I'll take a look.

OK, super. But mainly for the message of errors-waring system.

Many thanks


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-14 Thread Fred van Stappen
Hello Martin.


I search for a way to assist showmessage().

Do you have some idea ?


Thanks.


Fre;D
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-06 Thread Fred van Stappen
>> Thanks.  And I just discover that the space key does the trick too ;-)

> This is not the same.

Yep, it works only for Tenumedit.

>> I know that it is possible to use Alt+V then Alt+U,  Alt+M, ...
> Alt+V U, Alt+V M, ... works too.

Oh, perfect, many thanks for the tip.

PS: For console project, sincerely, I am able to do everything (load ideu 
assisted and edit-change-check-compile-run the project) in the dark (and eyes 
closed).
And your Target Console is fabulous: it is assisted too. ;-)
But my main problem is the keyboard, I have to train to use it without to look 
at it (like a real programmer).

For gui project, I did not try yet.

Many thanks Martin.

Fre;D
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-05 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/05/2016 10:53 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> Hello.
> 
>>> How to navigate with the keyboard in a combobox after it was selected ?
>> Alt+ArrowDown. dropdown.options deo_keydropdown must be set (default).
> 
> Thanks.  And I just discover that the space key does the trick too ;-)
> 
This is not the same. By that you enter text in edit widget, the
dropdown widget will be showed because of deo_autodropdown.

> 
>>> Or what key to use to select a docked form ?
>> In MSEide please use 'View'-'...
> 
> OK. But I think that a "all undocked" layout is more efficient for assistive.
> So system-Alt+Tab may be used (but in that case, the system must be assisted 
> too).
> 
> If the system is not assisted, Ctrl+Fn shortcut should be a solution.
> Is it possible to define a global-shortcut via the shortcuts-panel for:
> 
> main-form, source-editor-form, message-form, debugger-form, console-form
> 
No.
> or must it be coded ? (in shortcuts-panel, it is not proposed)

Yes, the actions must be added to actionsmo.shortcuts
(tshortcutcontroller in actionsmodule.pas).

> I know that it is possible to use Alt+V then Alt+U,  Alt+M, ... 

Alt+V U, Alt+V M, ... works too.

but I find it too difficult, I would prefer only one key.
> 

I fear there are not enough keys. ;-)

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-05 Thread Fred van Stappen
Hello.

>> How to navigate with the keyboard in a combobox after it was selected ?
> Alt+ArrowDown. dropdown.options deo_keydropdown must be set (default).

Thanks.  And I just discover that the space key does the trick too ;-)

>> But if the selected cell is a directory, how to get the text of the selected 
>> cell ?
> filelistview>.focuseditem.caption

Magnifique:

if assigned(tfilelistview(TheSender.getinstance).selectednames) then
 TheCell :=  'file , ' +  tfilelistview(TheSender.getinstance).selectednames[0]
else
if trim(tfilelistview(TheSender.getinstance).focuseditem.caption) <> '' then
 TheCell := 'directory , ' +  
tfilelistview(TheSender.getinstance).focuseditem.caption;


>> Does it exist the equivalent of Tform.showmodal in MSE ?
> ... or twidget.show(true)

Yep, twidget.show(true) does perfectly the trick.

>> Or what key to use to select a docked form ?
> In MSEide please use 'View'-'...

OK. But I think that a "all undocked" layout is more efficient for assistive.
So system-Alt+Tab may be used (but in that case, the system must be assisted 
too).

If the system is not assisted, Ctrl+Fn shortcut should be a solution.
Is it possible to define a global-shortcut via the shortcuts-panel for:

main-form, source-editor-form, message-form, debugger-form, console-form

or must it be coded ? (in shortcuts-panel, it is not proposed)
I know that it is possible to use Alt+V then Alt+U,  Alt+M, ... but I find it 
too difficult, I would prefer only one key.

Thanks.

Fre;D


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-05 Thread Martin Schreiber
On Monday 05 December 2016 15:29:08 Fred van Stappen wrote:
>
> But there are some that make trouble.
>
> It is those in projectoptionsfo with boolean cells.
> There is a Access violation error when selecting a "boolean" cell (cell
> with X).
>
> I do not find how to fix this.
>
Can you write a little bit more? Please start a new thread.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-05 Thread Fred van Stappen
Hello Martin.


Thanks for answer, I will study your propositions.


Other thing:


I have lot of success with twidgetgrid.

But there are some that make trouble.

It is those in projectoptionsfo with boolean cells.
There is a Access violation error when selecting a "boolean" cell (cell with X).

I do not find how to fix this.

All other cells (string) are ok.

Fre;D




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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-04 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/04/2016 06:01 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> Re-hello Martin.
> 
> Does it exist the equivalent of Tform.showmodal in MSE ?
> 
twidget.show() or twidget.show(true) which calls
twidget.show(ml_application).  can be "ml_none",
"ml_application" which starts a nested main event loop or "ml_window"
which does not start a nested main event loop.
[...]
> 
> Is it possible, when a form is docked, to still have the button in tackbar  
> (wo_taskbar) of that form ? This to still have the option to select a docked 
> form with alt+tab keys ?
> 
No.
> Or what key to use to select a docked form ?
> 
In MSEide please use 'View'-'. For panels created by
'View'-'New Panel' a Ctrl+Fn shortcut will be assigned. Many window
manger "eat" that key combinations.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-04 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/04/2016 02:00 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> 
> In a tfilelistview, when using the up-down-left-right key, I get the text of 
> the selected cell with:
> 
> if assigned(tfilelistview(TheSender.getinstance).selectednames) then
>  TheCell := tfilelistview(TheSender.getinstance).selectednames[0]
> 
> OK, it works perfectly.
> 
> But if the selected cell is a directory, how to get the text of the selected 
> cell ?
> 
.focuseditem.caption

> Other thing:
> 
> How to navigate with the keyboard in a combobox after it was selected ?
> 
Alt+ArrowDown. dropdown.options deo_keydropdown must be set (default).

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-04 Thread Fred van Stappen
Re-hello Martin.

Does it exist the equivalent of Tform.showmodal in MSE ?

Or how to keep the focus of a window, even if something is changed in a other 
window by that focused-window ?

Setting form.option to "wo_dialog" do not keep the focus if a other form is 
clicked.

Other thing:

Is it possible, when a form is docked, to still have the button in tackbar  
(wo_taskbar) of that form ? This to still have the option to select a docked 
form with alt+tab keys ?

Or what key to use to select a docked form ?

Thanks.

Fre;D


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-04 Thread Fred van Stappen
Hello Martin.

> It is a "tsysenvmanager" component

Super-Wow. Very impressive component.
Many thanks.

Other thing:

In a tfilelistview, when using the up-down-left-right key, I get the text of 
the selected cell with:

if assigned(tfilelistview(TheSender.getinstance).selectednames) then
 TheCell := tfilelistview(TheSender.getinstance).selectednames[0]

OK, it works perfectly.

But if the selected cell is a directory, how to get the text of the selected 
cell ?

Other thing:

How to navigate with the keyboard in a combobox after it was selected ?

Using the up or down key does not show the combobox-list.

Many thanks.


Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-03 Thread Fred van Stappen
> In case of a development IDE I think that a IDE for visually impaired

> people must be designed from scratch for the task, only to speak the
> texts of an IDE designed by and for not visually impaired people can not
> lead to an optimal result IMHO.

Yes, maybe.
But maybe it is possible to make a universal ide, that can be used by impaired 
people and others too.

Fre;D

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-03 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/03/2016 04:12 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> 
> 
>> Because it is not listed in guitemplates.pas "envvarty" definition and
>> the "guitemplatesmo.sysenv" "tsysenvmanager" component. Please use the
> '> ED' button of the objectinspector in order to edit the "sysenv"
>> component. The order of "envvarty" and the "sysenv" entries must match.
>> "sysenv" is placed in guitemplates unit because it is the first loaded 
>> module.
> 
> Hello Martin.
> 
> Huh, ED' button is grayed (disabled) and what (and where) is the sysenv 
> component ?
> 
It is a "tsysenvmanager" component and placed in datamodule
"guitemplatesmo" (file guitemplates.pas/mfm). The component must be
selected in order to be editable by "ED" button.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-03 Thread Fred van Stappen
> You have to escape the apostrophe with another apostrophe. Double them up.

>  eg:  str := 'What''s up?';

Thanks Graeme.

Fre;D
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-03 Thread Fred van Stappen


> Because it is not listed in guitemplates.pas "envvarty" definition and
>the "guitemplatesmo.sysenv" "tsysenvmanager" component. Please use the
'> ED' button of the objectinspector in order to edit the "sysenv"
> component. The order of "envvarty" and the "sysenv" entries must match.
> "sysenv" is placed in guitemplates unit because it is the first loaded module.

Hello Martin.

Huh, ED' button is grayed (disabled) and what (and where) is the sysenv 
component ?

Fre;D
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-03 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/01/2016 01:44 PM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
>> The advantage would be that the users can use the screenreader they are used 
>> to.
> 
> 
> Yes, maybe it is a advantage.
> 
>> But maybe - as you write - it is not possible to achieve good results if the 
>> application is not a 100% default Windows application.
> 
> Huh, that first and if you want that your program does something not 
> "standard" from the screen-reader, good luck to make it work.
> And what about compatibility with Windows versions (XP and Win10 does not use 
> same screen-reader) ?
> 
> PS: By the way, of course if you want to make MSEgui assistive interface 
> compatible also with build-in Windows screen-reader, do it and I will support 
> you work. (and after this I will adapt SAK to be better ;-) )
> 
I am not sure if I wrote clearly enough what I mean. I mean there should
be an additional module which connects to the MSEgui widgets by
"iassistiveserver" and "iassistiveclient", which probably booth need to
be extended for the task. The module then reacts on 'traffic' on the
"iassistiveserver" interface and requests from standard screen reader,
complements the information and hands it over to the screen reader by
its interface.
Currently I have no time to make it myself and I don't know blind
programmers whose help is indispensable in order to design a usable
system IMO.
In case of a development IDE I think that a IDE for visually impaired
people must be designed from scratch for the task, only to speak the
texts of an IDE designed by and for not visually impaired people can not
lead to an optimal result IMHO.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/03/2016 01:16 AM, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> Hello Martin.
> 
> When using parameter like -va , all is ok, the application run according the 
> parameter.
> 
> But at console there is that message:
> 
> # ./ideU -va
>> Invalid parameter: -va
> 
> I fixed it (temporally) commented line 949 of msesysenv.pas:
> 
> //  errorme(ern_invalidparameter,strar1[index]);
> 
> Why -va is not valid ?
> 
Because it is not listed in guitemplates.pas "envvarty" definition and
the "guitemplatesmo.sysenv" "tsysenvmanager" component. Please use the
'ED' button of the objectinspector in order to edit the "sysenv"
component. The order of "envvarty" and the "sysenv" entries must match.
"sysenv" is placed in guitemplates unit because it is the first loaded
module.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Graeme Geldenhuys
On 2016-12-03 00:16, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> Other thing, how to do to add apostrophe (') in a string ?
> 
> For example: str := ''' ; => does not work.

You have to escape the apostrophe with another apostrophe. Double them up.
  eg:  str := 'What''s up?';


Regards,
  Graeme


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Fred van Stappen
Hello Martin.

When using parameter like -va , all is ok, the application run according the 
parameter.

But at console there is that message:

# ./ideU -va
> Invalid parameter: -va

I fixed it (temporally) commented line 949 of msesysenv.pas:

//  errorme(ern_invalidparameter,strar1[index]);

Why -va is not valid ?

Other thing, how to do to add apostrophe (') in a string ?

For example: str := ''' ; => does not work.

Thanks.

PS: File-dialog-assisted fixed.

Fre;D

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Graeme Geldenhuys
On 2016-12-02 15:15, Martin Schreiber wrote:
> and either find none or decide that I like to cancel the operation
> and release Alt without pressing another key.

With Windows applications (even under WINE), if you press Alt key alone,
the menu bar has focus with the first menu item selected (no dropdown
menu). If you decide to cancel the operation, simply press the ESC key.

Regards,
  Graeme


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/02/2016 03:30 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> 
>> I am not sure if it is a good idea to activate the mainmenu
>> by Alt-key alone. Maybe Alt+Menu is better.
> 
> I can't think of any application that maps the Alt-key alone to any
> specific function.

But I often press the Alt-key and then check which additional key to
press and either find none or decide that I like to cancel the operation
and release Alt without pressing another key.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Graeme Geldenhuys
On 2016-12-02 13:19, Martin Schreiber wrote:
> Please use left arrow instead of right arrow in order to select the top
> level items.

Ah, that's a good alternative.


> I am not sure if it is a good idea to activate the mainmenu
> by Alt-key alone. Maybe Alt+Menu is better.

I can't think of any application that maps the Alt-key alone to any
specific function. Probably why Microsoft chose it for there standard
main menu usage, and because Alt+ already works with the main
menu - so Alt-key alone is just a variation of Alt+

On OSX, Apple uses Ctrl+F2 to accomplish the above. But that shortcut is
often used for something else under X11 or Windows. So probably not the
best idea.

OS/2 also used the Alt-key alone for main menu (or action bar) focus.


As for your suggestion about Alt+Menu... I've seen Windows applications
use that shortcut before. I don't know if that was a global shortcut, or
application specific.


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Martin Schreiber
On 12/02/2016 02:04 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> 
> The other problem (though a MSEgui issue) is navigating the main menu
> with arrow keys alone. This doesn't just apply to blind people, but they
> will notice it first. Starting ideU/MSEgui, you wouldn't know what main
> menu items exist, so you would presume a "File" menu exists (almost all
> applications have that - good or bad?) with Alt+F to access it. Pressing
> right arrow at that point opens the sub-menu, pressing right again,
> opens yet another sub menu. Eventually it runs out of sub menus, then
> only moves to the "Edit" main menu item.
> 
Please use left arrow instead of right arrow in order to select the top
level items. I am not sure if it is a good idea to activate the mainmenu
by Alt-key alone. Maybe Alt+Menu is better.

Martin

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Graeme Geldenhuys
On 2016-12-02 12:47, Fred van Stappen wrote:

> # ideu assisted
> 
> and this will load ideu with sak eanabled.

Good, but maybe make it "ide -assisted" (like normal parameter syntax),
because I think MSEgui and ideU supports filename parameters (no hyphen
prefix) to open files directly.


>> Fred, BobJ has a valid point about the 'up' or 'down' prompts...
> 
> OK, fixed, thanks to note it.
> I really need some testers, I did not note it.

All I did was start a console window. type in ./ideU  then closed my
eyes and pressed Enter so ideU loads up. Then try and open one of your
existing projects (don't even bother trying to edit code yet). It's
f**ken hard, and you easily notice problems. That's how I noticed the
menu and file dialog problems.

The other problem (though a MSEgui issue) is navigating the main menu
with arrow keys alone. This doesn't just apply to blind people, but they
will notice it first. Starting ideU/MSEgui, you wouldn't know what main
menu items exist, so you would presume a "File" menu exists (almost all
applications have that - good or bad?) with Alt+F to access it. Pressing
right arrow at that point opens the sub-menu, pressing right again,
opens yet another sub menu. Eventually it runs out of sub menus, then
only moves to the "Edit" main menu item.

Under Windows, you can simply press Alt on its own. That selects the
first main menu item, with out opening it up. Now you can navigate left
and right on the main menu, without seeing sub menus. It will be useful
for MSEgui (or MSEide to support that). In fact, I just added that to
fpGUI's todo list too - it used to work, but clearly got broken
[unnoticed] somewhere down the line.

Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Fred van Stappen
Ooops, sorry Graeme, I did not see your answer in fpc forum (and your vision 
are the same that mine).


O course sak must be better but all is possible.


For example, now in ideu-code editor, the speecher says also the commas, 
semi-colons, open-closed brackets, ...

Normally screen readers do not tell this.


Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-02 Thread Fred van Stappen
Hello.


I continue the discussion from fpc froum.


Graeme said:


> I think BobJ means... having instructions on how to enable SAK in ideU.


Yes, it is needed.

And I will add a parameter for ideu: "assisted".


So, at command line, just do:


# ideu assisted


and this will load ideu with sak eanabled.


> Fred, BobJ has a valid point about the 'up' or 'down' prompts...


OK, fixed, thanks to note it.

I really need some testers, I did not note it.


> Something else to point out. In the file selection dialog of ideU...


Huh, yes, indeed, I have to check it.


> I definitely believe you are not the right track though.


OK, what would be a better track ?


Many thanks for your advices.


Fred


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] MSEgui and screenreader

2016-12-01 Thread Fred van Stappen
> The advantage would be that the users can use the screenreader they are used 
> to.


Yes, maybe it is a advantage.

> But maybe - as you write - it is not possible to achieve good results if the 
> application is not a 100% default Windows application.

Huh, that first and if you want that your program does something not "standard" 
from the screen-reader, good luck to make it work.
And what about compatibility with Windows versions (XP and Win10 does not use 
same screen-reader) ?

PS: By the way, of course if you want to make MSEgui assistive interface 
compatible also with build-in Windows screen-reader, do it and I will support 
you work. (and after this I will adapt SAK to be better ;-) )

Fre;D


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