Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-23 Thread John Alexander
How can we have a conversation about efficency etc etce then in the next email 
have it all put in an FPGA?



  From: Tony Tebby <tonyte...@t-t-web.com>
 To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, 21 March 2017, 10:40
 Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
   
Dave Park thinks that

"So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of 
day."

That seems quite reasonable!

The problem can be viewed in two ways

Negatively

1) You need a system development environment that
    a) will support different processors - ruling out assembler
    b) does not impose UNIX type structures - ruling out C, C++, etc

2) You need to develop interface modules (drivers?) for a wide range of 
"peripheral" devices - the device manufacturers will not develop them 
for you.

3) You need to develop an applications base for a new market

4) You need to develop entirely different hardware architectures - this 
century, architectures have become ever more tightly dedicated to UNIX 
(Linux, Windows NT, ...)

Therefore you need $.

Positively

1) A first version of the Stella core was coded in MC68000 assembler and 
benchmarked against Solaris 2 (UNIX SVR4) showing orders of magnitude 
(under unrealistic, best case, benchmark conditions) lower system 
overheads. Sun Microsystems rejected the idea of developing the system 
saying that it would not work on either SPARC systems or symmetric 
multiprocessor systems (false) and that benchmarks were not reliable 
indicators (true). Instead they bought Chorus, a UNIX variant, which 
disappeared without trace. Not everybody will always be so stupid

2) There are signs that the "you can always use a more powerful 
computer" is becoming less acceptable as an excuse for chronically 
inefficient software.

3) There is still no end in sight to the discovery of new "exploits" in 
all sorts of Unix based devices. Unix is fundamentally unsound as well 
as chronically inefficient.

4) Unix type systems will inevitably be wiped out by other systems. We 
could hope that, unlike Unix, these will be theoretically sound and fit 
for purpose. This may not happen in our lifetime.

5) The only real barrier is ignorance. The story of Android is 
illustrative. If, in 2005, Google had known that they could have 
developed an entirely new operating system and had it up and running 
sooner than trying to kludge something out of Linux, would they have 
bought Android Inc. for $50M? Of course not, but they did not know.

Tony






On 18/03/2017 12:49, Ralf Reköndt wrote:
> I think, TT reads here, so he makes his own thougths about people, who 
> still remember his projects and are still interested in these.
>
> - Original Message - From: "Dave Park"
>
>> So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light 
>> of day.
>>
>> Thanks all!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbar
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry Dave,  I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was
>>> supposed to be:
>>>
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef.
>>> nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html
>>>
>>> but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you 
>>> mentioned.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Norm.
>>> -- 
>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. 
>
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List
>
>

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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-23 Thread Arnould
Nothing is happening with Stella. First this document was not intended
for publication. Thierry Godefroy insisted to do it.

Then in fact Stella is a concept for a range of operating systems.
Tony kept telling me that it would be more efficient to develop
hardware first and then dedicated OSes rather than try to port monster
OSes to different devices. 

Let us find a billionaire who would like a real "smart" phone and who
could pay for 10 good programmers during a year, and then Stella could
become something.

I have also come to the conclusion that not only money but also 
language is a major brake to evolution. Google "Performance Impact of
Lock-Free Algorithms on Multicore
Communication APIs" and try to read it. This paper more or less comes
to the same conclusions as Tony and a few others. And then the authors
conclude that existing systems should be patched... But where are the
"managers" who can understand this jargon?  I think that they do not
exist.

Arnould




On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:13:42 -0500, Dave Park wrote
> Tony
> 
> So, what *IS* happening with Stella?
> 
> With quiet deference, not personally knowing your policy on 
> sacrifices,
> 
> Dave
> 
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 2:18 AM, Urs Koenig (QL) 
>  wrote:
> 
> > Tony Tebby wrote:
> > > 5) The only real barrier is ignorance. The story of Android is
> > illustrative. If, in
> > > 2005, Google had known that they could have developed an
entirely new
> > > operating system and had it up and running sooner than trying to
kludge
> > > something out of Linux, would they have bought Android Inc. for
$50M? Of
> > > course not, but they did not know.
> > First, glad to read from you again!
> >
> > Having to deal with all kind of Windows and Linux systems in my
> > professional
> > life, I must say that the pain is not big enough for most people
and the
> > industry to rethink and restart. That's how human function, look
at cars or
> > electricity for example. Even with global warming and GAU's like
Chernobyl
> > and Fukushima rethinking and revolution are slow and with hurdles.
> >
> > Anyhow, I still spend approx. an hour a day to keep your legacy
alive. The
> > QL/E distribution - made with my limited skills and capabilities -
is an
> > offspring which is a handy thing to run, experience and show
> > what-could-have-been. At least those 500+ completed downloads
since April
> > 2015 prove some interest is still there.
> >
> > http://sinclairql.net/repository.html#QLE
> >
> > Urs
> >
> > ___
> > QL-Users Mailing List
> >
> 
> -- 
> Dave Park
> Sandy Labs
> d...@sinclairql.com
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List

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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-22 Thread Dave Park
Tony

So, what *IS* happening with Stella?

With quiet deference, not personally knowing your policy on sacrifices,

Dave

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 2:18 AM, Urs Koenig (QL)  wrote:

> Tony Tebby wrote:
> > 5) The only real barrier is ignorance. The story of Android is
> illustrative. If, in
> > 2005, Google had known that they could have developed an entirely new
> > operating system and had it up and running sooner than trying to kludge
> > something out of Linux, would they have bought Android Inc. for $50M? Of
> > course not, but they did not know.
> First, glad to read from you again!
>
> Having to deal with all kind of Windows and Linux systems in my
> professional
> life, I must say that the pain is not big enough for most people and the
> industry to rethink and restart. That's how human function, look at cars or
> electricity for example. Even with global warming and GAU's like Chernobyl
> and Fukushima rethinking and revolution are slow and with hurdles.
>
> Anyhow, I still spend approx. an hour a day to keep your legacy alive. The
> QL/E distribution - made with my limited skills and capabilities - is an
> offspring which is a handy thing to run, experience and show
> what-could-have-been. At least those 500+ completed downloads since April
> 2015 prove some interest is still there.
>
> http://sinclairql.net/repository.html#QLE
>
> Urs
>
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List
>



-- 
Dave Park
Sandy Labs
d...@sinclairql.com
___
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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-21 Thread Dave Park
I was clued in by that whole no developments in twelve years aspect ;)

One of those times I'm happy to be spectacularly wrong. :D

Dave

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Peter Graf  wrote:

> Hello Tony,
>
> it is good to read something from you.
>
> > 1) You need a system development environment that
> >  a) will support different processors - ruling out assembler
>
> That depends on where one looks for a niche market. Things have changed
> inasmuch small to medium sized FPGA have become large enough to contain
> a whole 32 bit CPU.
>
> In addition to that, patents on the original 68000 have expired.
>
> Because of the high code density, I found the 68K architecture best
> suited for use with the limited internal RAM resources of an FPGA. I
> have tried several 32 bit architectures, and 68K allows the smallest
> memory footprint.
>
> Within small to medium sized FPGA systems, having a real-time operating
> system would often advantageous, but existing systems are simply too large.
>
> For such targets, the best would be an assembler written OS, still
> allowing application code in C. Like SMSQ/E and C68, but capable of real
> time operation and oriented toward embedded systems instead of personal
> computing.
>
> > 2) You need to develop interface modules (drivers?) for a wide range of
> > "peripheral" devices - the device manufacturers will not develop them
> > for you.
>
> This also improves with FPGA - once there is a peripheral device in HDL
> (Hardware Definition Language) you can at least keep it th the same for
> the next product generation.
>
> > 4) You need to develop entirely different hardware architectures - this
> > century, architectures have become ever more tightly dedicated to UNIX
> > (Linux, Windows NT, ...)
>
> Maybe you can take the Q68 as a modest proof that a new hardware
> architecture can be close to 68K and the driver requirements of an
> assembler OS. I developed the Q68 as a hobby project, so is now 10 years
> old. Therefore it can not demonstrate the lastest chip performance, and
> of course the Q68 has a homecomputing flavour.
>
> But updated to latest chip generation, and adapted to an embdedded
> application, such a system suddenly could make a lot of sense with Stella.
>
> > 1) A first version of the Stella core was coded in MC68000 assembler and
> > benchmarked [...]
>
> So nothing would be better to continue development of the Stella than
> the 68K architecture.
>
> > 3) There is still no end in sight to the discovery of new "exploits" in
> > all sorts of Unix based devices.
>
> This is an important point. I have been joking with friends, that we
> might have to go back to 68K for internet use, simply because the
> architecture is too exotic to be exploited. Also, security requires
> lowest possible complexity.
>
> All the best
> Peter
>
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List
>



-- 
Dave Park
Sandy Labs
d...@sinclairql.com
___
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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-21 Thread Peter Graf
Hello Tony,

it is good to read something from you.

> 1) You need a system development environment that
>  a) will support different processors - ruling out assembler

That depends on where one looks for a niche market. Things have changed
inasmuch small to medium sized FPGA have become large enough to contain
a whole 32 bit CPU.

In addition to that, patents on the original 68000 have expired.

Because of the high code density, I found the 68K architecture best
suited for use with the limited internal RAM resources of an FPGA. I
have tried several 32 bit architectures, and 68K allows the smallest
memory footprint.

Within small to medium sized FPGA systems, having a real-time operating
system would often advantageous, but existing systems are simply too large.

For such targets, the best would be an assembler written OS, still
allowing application code in C. Like SMSQ/E and C68, but capable of real
time operation and oriented toward embedded systems instead of personal
computing.

> 2) You need to develop interface modules (drivers?) for a wide range of 
> "peripheral" devices - the device manufacturers will not develop them 
> for you.

This also improves with FPGA - once there is a peripheral device in HDL
(Hardware Definition Language) you can at least keep it th the same for
the next product generation.

> 4) You need to develop entirely different hardware architectures - this 
> century, architectures have become ever more tightly dedicated to UNIX 
> (Linux, Windows NT, ...)

Maybe you can take the Q68 as a modest proof that a new hardware
architecture can be close to 68K and the driver requirements of an
assembler OS. I developed the Q68 as a hobby project, so is now 10 years
old. Therefore it can not demonstrate the lastest chip performance, and
of course the Q68 has a homecomputing flavour.

But updated to latest chip generation, and adapted to an embdedded
application, such a system suddenly could make a lot of sense with Stella.

> 1) A first version of the Stella core was coded in MC68000 assembler and 
> benchmarked [...] 

So nothing would be better to continue development of the Stella than
the 68K architecture.

> 3) There is still no end in sight to the discovery of new "exploits" in 
> all sorts of Unix based devices.

This is an important point. I have been joking with friends, that we
might have to go back to 68K for internet use, simply because the
architecture is too exotic to be exploited. Also, security requires
lowest possible complexity.

All the best
Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-21 Thread Tony Tebby

Dave Park thinks that

"So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of 
day."


That seems quite reasonable!

The problem can be viewed in two ways

Negatively

1) You need a system development environment that
a) will support different processors - ruling out assembler
b) does not impose UNIX type structures - ruling out C, C++, etc

2) You need to develop interface modules (drivers?) for a wide range of 
"peripheral" devices - the device manufacturers will not develop them 
for you.


3) You need to develop an applications base for a new market

4) You need to develop entirely different hardware architectures - this 
century, architectures have become ever more tightly dedicated to UNIX 
(Linux, Windows NT, ...)


Therefore you need $.

Positively

1) A first version of the Stella core was coded in MC68000 assembler and 
benchmarked against Solaris 2 (UNIX SVR4) showing orders of magnitude 
(under unrealistic, best case, benchmark conditions) lower system 
overheads. Sun Microsystems rejected the idea of developing the system 
saying that it would not work on either SPARC systems or symmetric 
multiprocessor systems (false) and that benchmarks were not reliable 
indicators (true). Instead they bought Chorus, a UNIX variant, which 
disappeared without trace. Not everybody will always be so stupid


2) There are signs that the "you can always use a more powerful 
computer" is becoming less acceptable as an excuse for chronically 
inefficient software.


3) There is still no end in sight to the discovery of new "exploits" in 
all sorts of Unix based devices. Unix is fundamentally unsound as well 
as chronically inefficient.


4) Unix type systems will inevitably be wiped out by other systems. We 
could hope that, unlike Unix, these will be theoretically sound and fit 
for purpose. This may not happen in our lifetime.


5) The only real barrier is ignorance. The story of Android is 
illustrative. If, in 2005, Google had known that they could have 
developed an entirely new operating system and had it up and running 
sooner than trying to kludge something out of Linux, would they have 
bought Android Inc. for $50M? Of course not, but they did not know.


Tony






On 18/03/2017 12:49, Ralf Reköndt wrote:
I think, TT reads here, so he makes his own thougths about people, who 
still remember his projects and are still interested in these.


- Original Message - From: "Dave Park"

So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light 
of day.


Thanks all!

Dave

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbar
wrote:


Sorry Dave,  I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was
supposed to be:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef.
nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html

but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you 
mentioned.


Cheers,
Norm.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. 


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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-20 Thread Dave Park
Hi Doug.

I would. I have the SGC you gave me before, but it had an ever worsening
memory glitch and became unusable over that year. It would have been really
useful if it worked a few times, with trying to make my expansion
compatible with it but not having a working one.

Are you leaving the QL scene, or did you find an emulator replacement?

What would you like for it?

Dave

On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Doug L  wrote:

> Dave,
> Would you be interested in a complete QL system including SGC?
>
> Blurb on QL List got no response.
>
> If you don't remember, we had transactions long ago for which you
> travelled to TN.
>
> Doug LaVerne 37830 USA
>
> Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>
> On Mar 16, 2017 6:33 PM, Dave Park  wrote:
> >
> > So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of
> day.
> >
> > Thanks all!
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbar 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry Dave,  I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was
> > > supposed to be:
> > >
> > > https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef.
> > > nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html
> > >
> > > but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you
> mentioned.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Norm.
> > > --
> > > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> > > ___
> > > QL-Users Mailing List
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dave Park
> > Sandy Labs
> > d...@sinclairql.com
> > ___
> > QL-Users Mailing List
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List
>



-- 
Dave Park
Sandy Labs
d...@sinclairql.com
___
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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-18 Thread Ralf Reköndt
I think, TT reads here, so he makes his own thougths about people, who still 
remember his projects and are still interested in these.


- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Park"


So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of 
day.


Thanks all!

Dave

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbar
wrote:


Sorry Dave,  I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was
supposed to be:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef.
nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html

but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you mentioned.

Cheers,
Norm.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. 


___
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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-16 Thread Dave Park
So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of day.

Thanks all!

Dave

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbar 
wrote:

> Sorry Dave,  I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was
> supposed to be:
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef.
> nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html
>
> but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you mentioned.
>
> Cheers,
> Norm.
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List
>



-- 
Dave Park
Sandy Labs
d...@sinclairql.com
___
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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-16 Thread Norman Dunbar
Sorry Dave,  I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was supposed 
to be:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef.nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html

but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you mentioned.

Cheers,
Norm.
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
___
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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-16 Thread Dave Park
That URL seems to lead nowhere, Norman.

I did see a page from around 2005 with an outline of Stella, and have a zip
file of the same info but with working graphics showing a lot of
theoretical concepts.

Dave

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:51 AM, Norman Dunbar 
wrote:

> You might have seen this, perhaps?
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http
>
>
> Cheers,
> Norm.
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List
>



-- 
Dave Park
Sandy Labs
d...@sinclairql.com
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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-16 Thread Norman Dunbar
You might have seen this, perhaps?

https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http


Cheers,
Norm.
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-16 Thread Graeme Gregory
Well at least she was reassuringly expensive.

Graeme

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017, at 10:15 AM, Darren Branagh wrote:
> No idea but I do remember Roy Wood's joke about it sounding more like
> the name of a dodgy barmaid than an operating system... :-)
> 
> Darren Branagh
> 
> Sent from My Android Phone.
> 
> On 15 Mar 2017 23:31, "Dave Park"  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know what happened with Stella?
> 
> I originally heard about it in the late 90's, I recall. I did some
> googling
> and all I can find is an archived page by Thierry Godefroy.
> 
> Is it still a thing?
> 
> --
> Dave Park
> ___
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> ___
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Re: [Ql-Users] Stella

2017-03-16 Thread Darren Branagh
No idea but I do remember Roy Wood's joke about it sounding more like
the name of a dodgy barmaid than an operating system... :-)

Darren Branagh

Sent from My Android Phone.

On 15 Mar 2017 23:31, "Dave Park"  wrote:

Does anyone know what happened with Stella?

I originally heard about it in the late 90's, I recall. I did some googling
and all I can find is an archived page by Thierry Godefroy.

Is it still a thing?

--
Dave Park
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