Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
How can we have a conversation about efficency etc etce then in the next email have it all put in an FPGA? From: Tony Tebby <tonyte...@t-t-web.com> To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Sent: Tuesday, 21 March 2017, 10:40 Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Stella Dave Park thinks that "So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of day." That seems quite reasonable! The problem can be viewed in two ways Negatively 1) You need a system development environment that a) will support different processors - ruling out assembler b) does not impose UNIX type structures - ruling out C, C++, etc 2) You need to develop interface modules (drivers?) for a wide range of "peripheral" devices - the device manufacturers will not develop them for you. 3) You need to develop an applications base for a new market 4) You need to develop entirely different hardware architectures - this century, architectures have become ever more tightly dedicated to UNIX (Linux, Windows NT, ...) Therefore you need $. Positively 1) A first version of the Stella core was coded in MC68000 assembler and benchmarked against Solaris 2 (UNIX SVR4) showing orders of magnitude (under unrealistic, best case, benchmark conditions) lower system overheads. Sun Microsystems rejected the idea of developing the system saying that it would not work on either SPARC systems or symmetric multiprocessor systems (false) and that benchmarks were not reliable indicators (true). Instead they bought Chorus, a UNIX variant, which disappeared without trace. Not everybody will always be so stupid 2) There are signs that the "you can always use a more powerful computer" is becoming less acceptable as an excuse for chronically inefficient software. 3) There is still no end in sight to the discovery of new "exploits" in all sorts of Unix based devices. Unix is fundamentally unsound as well as chronically inefficient. 4) Unix type systems will inevitably be wiped out by other systems. We could hope that, unlike Unix, these will be theoretically sound and fit for purpose. This may not happen in our lifetime. 5) The only real barrier is ignorance. The story of Android is illustrative. If, in 2005, Google had known that they could have developed an entirely new operating system and had it up and running sooner than trying to kludge something out of Linux, would they have bought Android Inc. for $50M? Of course not, but they did not know. Tony On 18/03/2017 12:49, Ralf Reköndt wrote: > I think, TT reads here, so he makes his own thougths about people, who > still remember his projects and are still interested in these. > > - Original Message - From: "Dave Park" > >> So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light >> of day. >> >> Thanks all! >> >> Dave >> >> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbar >> wrote: >> >>> Sorry Dave, I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was >>> supposed to be: >>> >>> https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef. >>> nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html >>> >>> but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you >>> mentioned. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Norm. >>> -- >>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > > ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
Nothing is happening with Stella. First this document was not intended for publication. Thierry Godefroy insisted to do it. Then in fact Stella is a concept for a range of operating systems. Tony kept telling me that it would be more efficient to develop hardware first and then dedicated OSes rather than try to port monster OSes to different devices. Let us find a billionaire who would like a real "smart" phone and who could pay for 10 good programmers during a year, and then Stella could become something. I have also come to the conclusion that not only money but also language is a major brake to evolution. Google "Performance Impact of Lock-Free Algorithms on Multicore Communication APIs" and try to read it. This paper more or less comes to the same conclusions as Tony and a few others. And then the authors conclude that existing systems should be patched... But where are the "managers" who can understand this jargon? I think that they do not exist. Arnould On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:13:42 -0500, Dave Park wrote > Tony > > So, what *IS* happening with Stella? > > With quiet deference, not personally knowing your policy on > sacrifices, > > Dave > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 2:18 AM, Urs Koenig (QL) >wrote: > > > Tony Tebby wrote: > > > 5) The only real barrier is ignorance. The story of Android is > > illustrative. If, in > > > 2005, Google had known that they could have developed an entirely new > > > operating system and had it up and running sooner than trying to kludge > > > something out of Linux, would they have bought Android Inc. for $50M? Of > > > course not, but they did not know. > > First, glad to read from you again! > > > > Having to deal with all kind of Windows and Linux systems in my > > professional > > life, I must say that the pain is not big enough for most people and the > > industry to rethink and restart. That's how human function, look at cars or > > electricity for example. Even with global warming and GAU's like Chernobyl > > and Fukushima rethinking and revolution are slow and with hurdles. > > > > Anyhow, I still spend approx. an hour a day to keep your legacy alive. The > > QL/E distribution - made with my limited skills and capabilities - is an > > offspring which is a handy thing to run, experience and show > > what-could-have-been. At least those 500+ completed downloads since April > > 2015 prove some interest is still there. > > > > http://sinclairql.net/repository.html#QLE > > > > Urs > > > > ___ > > QL-Users Mailing List > > > > -- > Dave Park > Sandy Labs > d...@sinclairql.com > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
Tony So, what *IS* happening with Stella? With quiet deference, not personally knowing your policy on sacrifices, Dave On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 2:18 AM, Urs Koenig (QL)wrote: > Tony Tebby wrote: > > 5) The only real barrier is ignorance. The story of Android is > illustrative. If, in > > 2005, Google had known that they could have developed an entirely new > > operating system and had it up and running sooner than trying to kludge > > something out of Linux, would they have bought Android Inc. for $50M? Of > > course not, but they did not know. > First, glad to read from you again! > > Having to deal with all kind of Windows and Linux systems in my > professional > life, I must say that the pain is not big enough for most people and the > industry to rethink and restart. That's how human function, look at cars or > electricity for example. Even with global warming and GAU's like Chernobyl > and Fukushima rethinking and revolution are slow and with hurdles. > > Anyhow, I still spend approx. an hour a day to keep your legacy alive. The > QL/E distribution - made with my limited skills and capabilities - is an > offspring which is a handy thing to run, experience and show > what-could-have-been. At least those 500+ completed downloads since April > 2015 prove some interest is still there. > > http://sinclairql.net/repository.html#QLE > > Urs > > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > -- Dave Park Sandy Labs d...@sinclairql.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
I was clued in by that whole no developments in twelve years aspect ;) One of those times I'm happy to be spectacularly wrong. :D Dave On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Peter Grafwrote: > Hello Tony, > > it is good to read something from you. > > > 1) You need a system development environment that > > a) will support different processors - ruling out assembler > > That depends on where one looks for a niche market. Things have changed > inasmuch small to medium sized FPGA have become large enough to contain > a whole 32 bit CPU. > > In addition to that, patents on the original 68000 have expired. > > Because of the high code density, I found the 68K architecture best > suited for use with the limited internal RAM resources of an FPGA. I > have tried several 32 bit architectures, and 68K allows the smallest > memory footprint. > > Within small to medium sized FPGA systems, having a real-time operating > system would often advantageous, but existing systems are simply too large. > > For such targets, the best would be an assembler written OS, still > allowing application code in C. Like SMSQ/E and C68, but capable of real > time operation and oriented toward embedded systems instead of personal > computing. > > > 2) You need to develop interface modules (drivers?) for a wide range of > > "peripheral" devices - the device manufacturers will not develop them > > for you. > > This also improves with FPGA - once there is a peripheral device in HDL > (Hardware Definition Language) you can at least keep it th the same for > the next product generation. > > > 4) You need to develop entirely different hardware architectures - this > > century, architectures have become ever more tightly dedicated to UNIX > > (Linux, Windows NT, ...) > > Maybe you can take the Q68 as a modest proof that a new hardware > architecture can be close to 68K and the driver requirements of an > assembler OS. I developed the Q68 as a hobby project, so is now 10 years > old. Therefore it can not demonstrate the lastest chip performance, and > of course the Q68 has a homecomputing flavour. > > But updated to latest chip generation, and adapted to an embdedded > application, such a system suddenly could make a lot of sense with Stella. > > > 1) A first version of the Stella core was coded in MC68000 assembler and > > benchmarked [...] > > So nothing would be better to continue development of the Stella than > the 68K architecture. > > > 3) There is still no end in sight to the discovery of new "exploits" in > > all sorts of Unix based devices. > > This is an important point. I have been joking with friends, that we > might have to go back to 68K for internet use, simply because the > architecture is too exotic to be exploited. Also, security requires > lowest possible complexity. > > All the best > Peter > > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > -- Dave Park Sandy Labs d...@sinclairql.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
Hello Tony, it is good to read something from you. > 1) You need a system development environment that > a) will support different processors - ruling out assembler That depends on where one looks for a niche market. Things have changed inasmuch small to medium sized FPGA have become large enough to contain a whole 32 bit CPU. In addition to that, patents on the original 68000 have expired. Because of the high code density, I found the 68K architecture best suited for use with the limited internal RAM resources of an FPGA. I have tried several 32 bit architectures, and 68K allows the smallest memory footprint. Within small to medium sized FPGA systems, having a real-time operating system would often advantageous, but existing systems are simply too large. For such targets, the best would be an assembler written OS, still allowing application code in C. Like SMSQ/E and C68, but capable of real time operation and oriented toward embedded systems instead of personal computing. > 2) You need to develop interface modules (drivers?) for a wide range of > "peripheral" devices - the device manufacturers will not develop them > for you. This also improves with FPGA - once there is a peripheral device in HDL (Hardware Definition Language) you can at least keep it th the same for the next product generation. > 4) You need to develop entirely different hardware architectures - this > century, architectures have become ever more tightly dedicated to UNIX > (Linux, Windows NT, ...) Maybe you can take the Q68 as a modest proof that a new hardware architecture can be close to 68K and the driver requirements of an assembler OS. I developed the Q68 as a hobby project, so is now 10 years old. Therefore it can not demonstrate the lastest chip performance, and of course the Q68 has a homecomputing flavour. But updated to latest chip generation, and adapted to an embdedded application, such a system suddenly could make a lot of sense with Stella. > 1) A first version of the Stella core was coded in MC68000 assembler and > benchmarked [...] So nothing would be better to continue development of the Stella than the 68K architecture. > 3) There is still no end in sight to the discovery of new "exploits" in > all sorts of Unix based devices. This is an important point. I have been joking with friends, that we might have to go back to 68K for internet use, simply because the architecture is too exotic to be exploited. Also, security requires lowest possible complexity. All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
Dave Park thinks that "So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of day." That seems quite reasonable! The problem can be viewed in two ways Negatively 1) You need a system development environment that a) will support different processors - ruling out assembler b) does not impose UNIX type structures - ruling out C, C++, etc 2) You need to develop interface modules (drivers?) for a wide range of "peripheral" devices - the device manufacturers will not develop them for you. 3) You need to develop an applications base for a new market 4) You need to develop entirely different hardware architectures - this century, architectures have become ever more tightly dedicated to UNIX (Linux, Windows NT, ...) Therefore you need $. Positively 1) A first version of the Stella core was coded in MC68000 assembler and benchmarked against Solaris 2 (UNIX SVR4) showing orders of magnitude (under unrealistic, best case, benchmark conditions) lower system overheads. Sun Microsystems rejected the idea of developing the system saying that it would not work on either SPARC systems or symmetric multiprocessor systems (false) and that benchmarks were not reliable indicators (true). Instead they bought Chorus, a UNIX variant, which disappeared without trace. Not everybody will always be so stupid 2) There are signs that the "you can always use a more powerful computer" is becoming less acceptable as an excuse for chronically inefficient software. 3) There is still no end in sight to the discovery of new "exploits" in all sorts of Unix based devices. Unix is fundamentally unsound as well as chronically inefficient. 4) Unix type systems will inevitably be wiped out by other systems. We could hope that, unlike Unix, these will be theoretically sound and fit for purpose. This may not happen in our lifetime. 5) The only real barrier is ignorance. The story of Android is illustrative. If, in 2005, Google had known that they could have developed an entirely new operating system and had it up and running sooner than trying to kludge something out of Linux, would they have bought Android Inc. for $50M? Of course not, but they did not know. Tony On 18/03/2017 12:49, Ralf Reköndt wrote: I think, TT reads here, so he makes his own thougths about people, who still remember his projects and are still interested in these. - Original Message - From: "Dave Park" So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of day. Thanks all! Dave On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbar wrote: Sorry Dave, I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was supposed to be: https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef. nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you mentioned. Cheers, Norm. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
Hi Doug. I would. I have the SGC you gave me before, but it had an ever worsening memory glitch and became unusable over that year. It would have been really useful if it worked a few times, with trying to make my expansion compatible with it but not having a working one. Are you leaving the QL scene, or did you find an emulator replacement? What would you like for it? Dave On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Doug Lwrote: > Dave, > Would you be interested in a complete QL system including SGC? > > Blurb on QL List got no response. > > If you don't remember, we had transactions long ago for which you > travelled to TN. > > Doug LaVerne 37830 USA > > Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device > > On Mar 16, 2017 6:33 PM, Dave Park wrote: > > > > So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of > day. > > > > Thanks all! > > > > Dave > > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbar > > wrote: > > > > > Sorry Dave, I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was > > > supposed to be: > > > > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef. > > > nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html > > > > > > but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you > mentioned. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Norm. > > > -- > > > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > ___ > > > QL-Users Mailing List > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dave Park > > Sandy Labs > > d...@sinclairql.com > > ___ > > QL-Users Mailing List > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > -- Dave Park Sandy Labs d...@sinclairql.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
I think, TT reads here, so he makes his own thougths about people, who still remember his projects and are still interested in these. - Original Message - From: "Dave Park" So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of day. Thanks all! Dave On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbar wrote: Sorry Dave, I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was supposed to be: https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef. nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you mentioned. Cheers, Norm. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
So, fair to assume it's a dead project that will never see the light of day. Thanks all! Dave On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Norman Dunbarwrote: > Sorry Dave, I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was > supposed to be: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef. > nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html > > but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you mentioned. > > Cheers, > Norm. > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > -- Dave Park Sandy Labs d...@sinclairql.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
Sorry Dave, I seem to have an inability to use a tablet! The url was supposed to be: https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http://thgodef.nerim.net/qdos/stella/intro.html but I suspect it's Arnauld's page on Thierry's site which you mentioned. Cheers, Norm. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
That URL seems to lead nowhere, Norman. I did see a page from around 2005 with an outline of Stella, and have a zip file of the same info but with working graphics showing a lot of theoretical concepts. Dave On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:51 AM, Norman Dunbarwrote: > You might have seen this, perhaps? > > https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http > > > Cheers, > Norm. > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > -- Dave Park Sandy Labs d...@sinclairql.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
You might have seen this, perhaps? https://web.archive.org/web/20050914114333/http Cheers, Norm. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
Well at least she was reassuringly expensive. Graeme On Thu, 16 Mar 2017, at 10:15 AM, Darren Branagh wrote: > No idea but I do remember Roy Wood's joke about it sounding more like > the name of a dodgy barmaid than an operating system... :-) > > Darren Branagh > > Sent from My Android Phone. > > On 15 Mar 2017 23:31, "Dave Park"wrote: > > Does anyone know what happened with Stella? > > I originally heard about it in the late 90's, I recall. I did some > googling > and all I can find is an archived page by Thierry Godefroy. > > Is it still a thing? > > -- > Dave Park > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Stella
No idea but I do remember Roy Wood's joke about it sounding more like the name of a dodgy barmaid than an operating system... :-) Darren Branagh Sent from My Android Phone. On 15 Mar 2017 23:31, "Dave Park"wrote: Does anyone know what happened with Stella? I originally heard about it in the late 90's, I recall. I did some googling and all I can find is an archived page by Thierry Godefroy. Is it still a thing? -- Dave Park ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List