Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Axil Axil]

Che makes a cogent point. The year long test was far more that an attempt
to extract money from IH, It was an attempt to verify a commercial product
and the attempt failed at least in Rossi's estimation. This attempt at
commercial applicability was why the test was so convoluted, inappropriate
to the spec, and needlessly involved. Rossi has a good idea about what will
work in the marketplace and his E-Cat would fall short of Rossi's
expectations as Rossi saw it.

The lawsuit was Rossi's method of punishing IH for messing with his IP and
using Rossi in a game to extract money from others. Rossi had to get out
from under IH who wanted to control Rossi. In the art of the deal, you take
an extreme position and then when you get what you want in negotiations,
then you settle.

Rossi frightened IH with bankruptcy until he wore IH down enough to give
Rossi what he really wanted, There was no science or fair play in this
maneuver for Rossi. The test was power, lawyers and tactics on power, other
lawyers and countertactics. A good bisiness man never plays fair in getting
what he wants, truth seldom plays a part in the game, It is shrewd cunning
that is the trait that wins the day in court.

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Che  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 1:01 AM, Lennart Thornros 
> wrote:
>
>> The whole discussion after the TRAIL is useless. Accusations between
>> vorts, discussions trying to determine how Rossi is a fraud or not - all of
>> counter productive.
>> Rossi has a small window to show that he has something. His ethics need
>> no analysis. Rossi as a person is of little interest if the focus is LENR.
>> The only that came out of this lawsuit was that nobody has picked up a
>> path to a commercial LENR.
>> The interest in LENR has gone down as it obviously still is no solution.
>> Still the interest exceeds what was before Rossi's appearance in this
>> field.
>> I suggest to change the focus to possible solutions and let Rossi return
>> with his better mousetrap when or if he has one.
>>
>
> (I just saw a better mousetrap on Youtube, BTW.)
>
>
> The issue IS the crass, obsessive focus on creating a commercial 'product'
> -- and NOT the Science. Andrea Rossi himself is _wholly_ responsible for
> that failing, here. OTOH, anyone _should_ be able to see that the Science
> ALWAYS should have come first -- especially in such a bold, pioneering and
> high-stakes sphere -- but DIDN'T: and this yet another attempt at crass
> commercialization IS the essential reason WHY this latest episode ends in
> wretched failure (assuming cold fusion is not simply a canard), and in
> acrimonious recriminations which only hurt the scientific side of the
> matter: the ONLY side which really matters.
>
> People should simply be turning to the likes of the Martin Fleischmann
> Memorial Project, and putting their bets THERE. In OPEN Science.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Lennart
>>
>> On Jul 9, 2017 19:03, "Che"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Jed Rothwell 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Che  wrote:
>>>
>>>
 Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!

>>>
>>> That is not what I would call a cogent response, but I appreciate the
>>> brevity of it. You needn't say more, since your responses are canned and
>>> never deviate from party doctrine.
>>>
>>> - Jed
>>>
>>>
>> We are following an old script, here. If you want to pretend there's an
>> actual dialog going on, feel free. Just don't pretend to the others that
>> you're 'winning' something here, OK?
>>
>> In any case: the political-economic aspects of the Rossi fiasco are every
>> bit as 'cogent' as the fyzix and engineering. At this point -- even more so.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 1:01 AM, Lennart Thornros 
wrote:

> The whole discussion after the TRAIL is useless. Accusations between
> vorts, discussions trying to determine how Rossi is a fraud or not - all of
> counter productive.
> Rossi has a small window to show that he has something. His ethics need no
> analysis. Rossi as a person is of little interest if the focus is LENR.
> The only that came out of this lawsuit was that nobody has picked up a
> path to a commercial LENR.
> The interest in LENR has gone down as it obviously still is no solution.
> Still the interest exceeds what was before Rossi's appearance in this
> field.
> I suggest to change the focus to possible solutions and let Rossi return
> with his better mousetrap when or if he has one.
>

(I just saw a better mousetrap on Youtube, BTW.)


The issue IS the crass, obsessive focus on creating a commercial 'product'
-- and NOT the Science. Andrea Rossi himself is _wholly_ responsible for
that failing, here. OTOH, anyone _should_ be able to see that the Science
ALWAYS should have come first -- especially in such a bold, pioneering and
high-stakes sphere -- but DIDN'T: and this yet another attempt at crass
commercialization IS the essential reason WHY this latest episode ends in
wretched failure (assuming cold fusion is not simply a canard), and in
acrimonious recriminations which only hurt the scientific side of the
matter: the ONLY side which really matters.

People should simply be turning to the likes of the Martin Fleischmann
Memorial Project, and putting their bets THERE. In OPEN Science.








> Lennart
>
> On Jul 9, 2017 19:03, "Che"  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
>> Che  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!
>>>
>>
>> That is not what I would call a cogent response, but I appreciate the
>> brevity of it. You needn't say more, since your responses are canned and
>> never deviate from party doctrine.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
> We are following an old script, here. If you want to pretend there's an
> actual dialog going on, feel free. Just don't pretend to the others that
> you're 'winning' something here, OK?
>
> In any case: the political-economic aspects of the Rossi fiasco are every
> bit as 'cogent' as the fyzix and engineering. At this point -- even more so.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Lennart Thornros]

The whole discussion after the TRAIL is useless. Accusations between vorts,
discussions trying to determine how Rossi is a fraud or not - all of
counter productive.
Rossi has a small window to show that he has something. His ethics need no
analysis. Rossi as a person is of little interest if the focus is LENR.
The only that came out of this lawsuit was that nobody has picked up a path
to a commercial LENR.
The interest in LENR has gone down as it obviously still is no solution.
Still the interest exceeds what was before Rossi's appearance in this
field.
I suggest to change the focus to possible solutions and let Rossi return
with his better mousetrap when or if he has one.
Lennart

On Jul 9, 2017 19:03, "Che"  wrote:



On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Che  wrote:
>
>
>> Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!
>>
>
> That is not what I would call a cogent response, but I appreciate the
> brevity of it. You needn't say more, since your responses are canned and
> never deviate from party doctrine.
>
> - Jed
>
>
We are following an old script, here. If you want to pretend there's an
actual dialog going on, feel free. Just don't pretend to the others that
you're 'winning' something here, OK?

In any case: the political-economic aspects of the Rossi fiasco are every
bit as 'cogent' as the fyzix and engineering. At this point -- even more so.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Che  wrote:
>
>
>> Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!
>>
>
> That is not what I would call a cogent response, but I appreciate the
> brevity of it. You needn't say more, since your responses are canned and
> never deviate from party doctrine.
>
> - Jed
>
>
We are following an old script, here. If you want to pretend there's an
actual dialog going on, feel free. Just don't pretend to the others that
you're 'winning' something here, OK?

In any case: the political-economic aspects of the Rossi fiasco are every
bit as 'cogent' as the fyzix and engineering. At this point -- even more so.

RE: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

What went through my mind was that Axil seemed a bit like a latter-day Jules 
Verne.  Jules predicted nuclear subs that went to sea 82 years later.

On the other hand, maybe Axil needs a little more Li in his reactor. 

Bob Cook





Bob Cook

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Brian Ahern<mailto:ahern_br...@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 5:44 AM
To: vortex-l<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned


This note from Axil reminds me of my friends postings when he was in the manic 
phase when all things seem possible and easy to obtain.


From: Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 4:40 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

My view of LENR is predicated on the control of the quarks inside of matter. If 
these quarks can be manipulated and managed, control of matter at any arbitrary 
distance might one day be possible.

Atomic weapons could be disabled at a distance when the fissile elements are 
transmuted into non fissile ones by a muon beam. The atmosphere of venus could 
be modified to remove the Co2 so that Venus could be made habitable.

The core of Mars could be reactivated with nuclear fire to restore the magnetic 
shield that once protected its atmosphere in the first step at terraforming 
Mars into someplace that can be colonized by mankind. Then Co2 could be created 
to start a heated atmosphere to heat Mars to livable temperatures.

The there is near light speed spacecraft engines that become possible to build 
that are driven by bear light speed subatomic particles.


The energy source that the work of Holmlid is exploring might prove to make 
interstellar travel practicable. Holmlid first assumed that the energy produced 
by the reaction he was studding was some sort of hot fusion reaction activated 
by laser ignition. But when Holmlid studied the type of sub atomic particles 
that were being generated, he recognized that fusion could not generate the 
huge amount of power that the reaction was producing. For example, Holmlid 
detected Kaon triplet generation. He postulates that two protons are being 
destabilized into decay to produce three kaons and 390 MeV of binding energy. 
This very same proton decay reaction was one of the target reaction searched 
for by the Super-Kamiokande proton decay detector to prove that protons must 
decay in support of grand unification supersymmetric theory.

The proton is assumed to be absolutely stable in the Standard Model. However, 
the Grand Unified Theories (GUTs) predict that protons can decay into lighter 
energetic charged particles such as electrons, muons, pions or others which can 
be observed. Kamiokande helps to rule out some of the theories. 
Super-Kamiokande is currently the largest detector for observation of proton 
decay.



The proton decay action could increase the energy yield by 100,000 over what 
was postulated in the Bussard ramjet interstellar system.



The Bussard ramjet is a theoretical method of interstellar spacecraft 
propulsion proposed in 1960 by the physicist Robert W. Bussard. Bussard 
proposed a ramjet variant of a fusion rocket capable of reasonable interstellar 
travel, using enormous electromagnetic fields (ranging from kilometers to many 
thousands of kilometers in diameter) as a ram scoop to collect and compress 
hydrogen from the interstellar medium.

When proton decay is used as a power source for the Ramjet, once the hydrogen 
is collected, it is isotopically purified and the deuterium is stored in a 
separate container. The purified hydrogen then enters storage to even out the 
collection of interstellar gas. This storage strategy will enable the ramjet to 
maneuver freely in space without concern for variations in the density of 
residual hydrogen throughout space. From storage the hydrogen gas is metered 
into a Holmlid reaction chamber were the hydrogen is ignited into a high energy 
plasma via the catalyzed reaction.

Since the continued propulsion of a proton powered ramjet spaceship is 
dependent on interstellar hydrogen, the nature of interstellar hydrogen is the 
main issue of concern when designing such a spaceship. Two aspects of 
particular interest are the overall density and the isotopic composition of the 
interstellar hydrogen. The overall density controls the rate at which proton 
reactions can take place relative to the craft's speed and the size of the 
scoop's area. The isotopic composition determines which reaction pathway is 
best to use

The interstellar density of hydrogen is 0.86 atoms/cm3. At a minimum, the 
energy gain relationship determined by Holmlid  was found to be 390 MeV per 
each diproton reaction (two hydrogen atoms). For deuterium fusion, only 10 MeV 
can be generated per reaction. In the proton reaction, The remainder of the 
proton mass and associated electrons are used as reaction mass. From this info,

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Brian Ahern]

This note from Axil reminds me of my friends postings when he was in the manic 
phase when all things seem possible and easy to obtain.



From: Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 4:40 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

My view of LENR is predicated on the control of the quarks inside of matter. If 
these quarks can be manipulated and managed, control of matter at any arbitrary 
distance might one day be possible.

Atomic weapons could be disabled at a distance when the fissile elements are 
transmuted into non fissile ones by a muon beam. The atmosphere of venus could 
be modified to remove the Co2 so that Venus could be made habitable.

The core of Mars could be reactivated with nuclear fire to restore the magnetic 
shield that once protected its atmosphere in the first step at terraforming 
Mars into someplace that can be colonized by mankind. Then Co2 could be created 
to start a heated atmosphere to heat Mars to livable temperatures.

The there is near light speed spacecraft engines that become possible to build 
that are driven by bear light speed subatomic particles.


The energy source that the work of Holmlid is exploring might prove to make 
interstellar travel practicable. Holmlid first assumed that the energy produced 
by the reaction he was studding was some sort of hot fusion reaction activated 
by laser ignition. But when Holmlid studied the type of sub atomic particles 
that were being generated, he recognized that fusion could not generate the 
huge amount of power that the reaction was producing. For example, Holmlid 
detected Kaon triplet generation. He postulates that two protons are being 
destabilized into decay to produce three kaons and 390 MeV of binding energy. 
This very same proton decay reaction was one of the target reaction searched 
for by the Super-Kamiokande proton decay detector to prove that protons must 
decay in support of grand unification supersymmetric theory.

The proton is assumed to be absolutely stable in the Standard Model. However, 
the Grand Unified Theories (GUTs) predict that protons can decay into lighter 
energetic charged particles such as electrons, muons, pions or others which can 
be observed. Kamiokande helps to rule out some of the theories. 
Super-Kamiokande is currently the largest detector for observation of proton 
decay.



The proton decay action could increase the energy yield by 100,000 over what 
was postulated in the Bussard ramjet interstellar system.


The Bussard ramjet is a theoretical method of interstellar spacecraft 
propulsion proposed in 1960 by the physicist Robert W. Bussard. Bussard 
proposed a ramjet variant of a fusion rocket capable of reasonable interstellar 
travel, using enormous electromagnetic fields (ranging from kilometers to many 
thousands of kilometers in diameter) as a ram scoop to collect and compress 
hydrogen from the interstellar medium.

When proton decay is used as a power source for the Ramjet, once the hydrogen 
is collected, it is isotopically purified and the deuterium is stored in a 
separate container. The purified hydrogen then enters storage to even out the 
collection of interstellar gas. This storage strategy will enable the ramjet to 
maneuver freely in space without concern for variations in the density of 
residual hydrogen throughout space. From storage the hydrogen gas is metered 
into a Holmlid reaction chamber were the hydrogen is ignited into a high energy 
plasma via the catalyzed reaction.

Since the continued propulsion of a proton powered ramjet spaceship is 
dependent on interstellar hydrogen, the nature of interstellar hydrogen is the 
main issue of concern when designing such a spaceship. Two aspects of 
particular interest are the overall density and the isotopic composition of the 
interstellar hydrogen. The overall density controls the rate at which proton 
reactions can take place relative to the craft's speed and the size of the 
scoop's area. The isotopic composition determines which reaction pathway is 
best to use

The interstellar density of hydrogen is 0.86 atoms/cm3. At a minimum, the 
energy gain relationship determined by Holmlid  was found to be 390 MeV per 
each diproton reaction (two hydrogen atoms). For deuterium fusion, only 10 MeV 
can be generated per reaction. In the proton reaction, The remainder of the 
proton mass and associated electrons are used as reaction mass. From this info, 
the scoop volume might be calculated as of function of spacecraft speed. The 
faster you go the more hydrogen that you can harvest.

There is a minimum takeoff speed required before the sustainable energy 
relationship is met and the scoop volume may be reduced as the Ramjet 
accelerates.

There is more mass/energy content in deuterium which is about 1 atom out of 
5000 captured.

When fusion produces power for the Ramjet, only deuterium can be used. When 
proton decay provides

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Axil Axil]

 can be excited into nuclear disassociation
through the application of an EMF stimulus.

I like the proton decay reaction as a basis to support a light speed
capable interstellar motor. As discovered by Holmlid, LENR produces sub
atomic particles, mostly muons and hydrogen nuclear fragments moving at ¾
light speeds. And even better, LENR produces its own energy from muon based
catalyzed fusion as a side reaction. This fusion energy would be used to
sustain the electromagnetic hydrogen collection fields.

For those with an open mind, taking the work of Holmlid seriously might be
the first step in reaching the stars.





On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Che <comandantegri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> They don't call Cold Fusion 'The New Fire', for no reason.
>
> On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Frank Znidarsic <fznidar...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>> That's good Jed.  If you have read my work cold fusion is a step towards
>> control of all of the natural forces.   I will have the same effect as
>> Oersted's discovery of electromagnetic induction.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
>> and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
>> human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com>
>> To: Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>> Sent: Fri, Jul 7, 2017 6:37 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned
>>
>> I wrote:
>>
>>
>> If I succeed at promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I
>> shall play an important role in changing the world more than Marxism and
>> Capitalism combined.
>>
>>
>> That sounds like hyperbole, but I mean it. I think that Marxism and
>> capitalism are both on their way out. As we have discussed here, I think
>> robots and intelligent computers will compel us to adapt a new form of
>> economy that is neither capitalist or communist.
>>
>> Capitalism began around the year 1500, gradually replacing feudalism.
>> Communism began around 1850. Both are now in their twilight. I expect that
>> by 2100 we will have a new economic system. Unlike every previous system it
>> will not mainly depend on the exchange of human labor for goods and
>> services. It remains to be seen what it will be like. I hope it will be
>> better for everyone, and better for the ecology, but you never know how
>> things will turn out.
>>
>> If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
>> and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
>> human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will -- over the
>> next few million years cold fusion should have roughly the same impact as
>> the discovery of fire. Unless something better is discovered.
>>
>> People who have not read history have the notion that institutions such
>> as capitalism, nation states, universities, corporations and so on have
>> been part of society forever and they will always be with us. Actually,
>> they are recent inventions and there is no reason to think they will
>> continue centuries into the future. They will continue as long as people
>> find them useful.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

They don't call Cold Fusion 'The New Fire', for no reason.

On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Frank Znidarsic <fznidar...@aol.com> wrote:

> That's good Jed.  If you have read my work cold fusion is a step towards
> control of all of the natural forces.   I will have the same effect as
> Oersted's discovery of electromagnetic induction.
>
> Frank
>
> If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
> and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
> human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will --
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com>
> To: Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Fri, Jul 7, 2017 6:37 pm
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned
>
> I wrote:
>
>
> If I succeed at promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I
> shall play an important role in changing the world more than Marxism and
> Capitalism combined.
>
>
> That sounds like hyperbole, but I mean it. I think that Marxism and
> capitalism are both on their way out. As we have discussed here, I think
> robots and intelligent computers will compel us to adapt a new form of
> economy that is neither capitalist or communist.
>
> Capitalism began around the year 1500, gradually replacing feudalism.
> Communism began around 1850. Both are now in their twilight. I expect that
> by 2100 we will have a new economic system. Unlike every previous system it
> will not mainly depend on the exchange of human labor for goods and
> services. It remains to be seen what it will be like. I hope it will be
> better for everyone, and better for the ecology, but you never know how
> things will turn out.
>
> If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
> and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
> human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will -- over the
> next few million years cold fusion should have roughly the same impact as
> the discovery of fire. Unless something better is discovered.
>
> People who have not read history have the notion that institutions such as
> capitalism, nation states, universities, corporations and so on have been
> part of society forever and they will always be with us. Actually, they are
> recent inventions and there is no reason to think they will continue
> centuries into the future. They will continue as long as people find them
> useful.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:

> One of the cool things about cold fusion in a 500 year outlook is that it
> makes for a very ineffective weapon.   Even fire is a more effective weapon.
>

Oooh... I don't know about that...




You know why potatoes became a crop of choice in Europe?   Because when a
> king's army sieged your castle and burned your crops, there were still
> potatoes in the ground that you could eat and you wouldn't starve to death.
>
>
> Why did the Spanish overtake a continent with a few thousand men while the
> Vikings were vanquished 500 years earlier?   Because the Spanish had
> FIREarms.   They had harnessed gunpowder (for evil purposes, albeit).
>

It was more because they had a more effective level of military and
bureaucratic organization. AND the weapons, of course. However, AND
logistical support which operated at a higher level than any
'pre-Colombian' society could muster.






>
>
> In 500 years there will be LENR cars, widespread cheap desalination, and
> Cold Fusion powered spacecraft.
>


In 500 years -- assuming much -- people will NOT be driving cars of ANY
sort. There will be appropriate levels of mass transportation. If there is
some requirement for a personal vehicle, at some times -- such a vehicle
will be made available, assuredly, for whatever length of time is required.
'Desalination' WILL be a moot point, in a World run on 'holistic',
NON-capitalist methods

But sure. Spacecraft.



And Jed is *still* laffably wrong.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Frank Znidarsic]

That's good Jed.  If you have read my work cold fusion is a step towards 
control of all of the natural forces.   I will have the same effect as 
Oersted's discovery of electromagnetic induction.


Frank

If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years, and 
ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the human race 
survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will --




-Original Message-
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com>
To: Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 7, 2017 6:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned



I wrote:

 


If I succeed at promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I shall 
play an important role in changing the world more than Marxism and Capitalism 
combined.




That sounds like hyperbole, but I mean it. I think that Marxism and capitalism 
are both on their way out. As we have discussed here, I think robots and 
intelligent computers will compel us to adapt a new form of economy that is 
neither capitalist or communist.


Capitalism began around the year 1500, gradually replacing feudalism. Communism 
began around 1850. Both are now in their twilight. I expect that by 2100 we 
will have a new economic system. Unlike every previous system it will not 
mainly depend on the exchange of human labor for goods and services. It remains 
to be seen what it will be like. I hope it will be better for everyone, and 
better for the ecology, but you never know how things will turn out.


If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years, and 
ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the human race 
survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will -- over the next few 
million years cold fusion should have roughly the same impact as the discovery 
of fire. Unless something better is discovered.


People who have not read history have the notion that institutions such as 
capitalism, nation states, universities, corporations and so on have been part 
of society forever and they will always be with us. Actually, they are recent 
inventions and there is no reason to think they will continue centuries into 
the future. They will continue as long as people find them useful.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Daniel Rocha]

You are trolling. Or you lack objectivity. If you cannot explain something
that simple to someone very educated, you are pretty worthless to explain
anything to a working person.

2017-07-07 19:59 GMT-03:00 Che :

>
> Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!
>
>
>

-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Jed Rothwell]

Che  wrote:


> Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!
>

That is not what I would call a cogent response, but I appreciate the
brevity of it. You needn't say more, since your responses are canned and
never deviate from party doctrine.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

Clueless, DEAD wrong, AND delusional. All in one email post!

Great work, Jed.




On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> I wrote:
>
>
>> If I succeed at promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I
>> shall play an important role in changing the world more than Marxism and
>> Capitalism combined.
>>
>
> That sounds like hyperbole, but I mean it. I think that Marxism and
> capitalism are both on their way out. As we have discussed here, I think
> robots and intelligent computers will compel us to adapt a new form of
> economy that is neither capitalist or communist.
>
> Capitalism began around the year 1500, gradually replacing feudalism.
> Communism began around 1850. Both are now in their twilight. I expect that
> by 2100 we will have a new economic system. Unlike every previous system it
> will not mainly depend on the exchange of human labor for goods and
> services. It remains to be seen what it will be like. I hope it will be
> better for everyone, and better for the ecology, but you never know how
> things will turn out.
>
> If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
> and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
> human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will -- over the
> next few million years cold fusion should have roughly the same impact as
> the discovery of fire. Unless something better is discovered.
>
> People who have not read history have the notion that institutions such as
> capitalism, nation states, universities, corporations and so on have been
> part of society forever and they will always be with us. Actually, they are
> recent inventions and there is no reason to think they will continue
> centuries into the future. They will continue as long as people find them
> useful.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Kevin O'Malley]

One of the cool things about cold fusion in a 500 year outlook is that it
makes for a very ineffective weapon.   Even fire is a more effective weapon.

You know why potatoes became a crop of choice in Europe?   Because when a
king's army sieged your castle and burned your crops, there were still
potatoes in the ground that you could eat and you wouldn't starve to death.


Why did the Spanish overtake a continent with a few thousand men while the
Vikings were vanquished 500 years earlier?   Because the Spanish had
FIREarms.   They had harnessed gunpowder (for evil purposes, albeit).

In 500 years there will be LENR cars, widespread cheap desalination, and
Cold Fusion powered spacecraft.

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> I wrote:
>
>
>> If I succeed at promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I
>> shall play an important role in changing the world more than Marxism and
>> Capitalism combined.
>>
>
> That sounds like hyperbole, but I mean it. I think that Marxism and
> capitalism are both on their way out. As we have discussed here, I think
> robots and intelligent computers will compel us to adapt a new form of
> economy that is neither capitalist or communist.
>
> Capitalism began around the year 1500, gradually replacing feudalism.
> Communism began around 1850. Both are now in their twilight. I expect that
> by 2100 we will have a new economic system. Unlike every previous system it
> will not mainly depend on the exchange of human labor for goods and
> services. It remains to be seen what it will be like. I hope it will be
> better for everyone, and better for the ecology, but you never know how
> things will turn out.
>
> If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
> and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
> human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will -- over the
> next few million years cold fusion should have roughly the same impact as
> the discovery of fire. Unless something better is discovered.
>
> People who have not read history have the notion that institutions such as
> capitalism, nation states, universities, corporations and so on have been
> part of society forever and they will always be with us. Actually, they are
> recent inventions and there is no reason to think they will continue
> centuries into the future. They will continue as long as people find them
> useful.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Jed Rothwell]

I wrote:


> If I succeed at promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I
> shall play an important role in changing the world more than Marxism and
> Capitalism combined.
>

That sounds like hyperbole, but I mean it. I think that Marxism and
capitalism are both on their way out. As we have discussed here, I think
robots and intelligent computers will compel us to adapt a new form of
economy that is neither capitalist or communist.

Capitalism began around the year 1500, gradually replacing feudalism.
Communism began around 1850. Both are now in their twilight. I expect that
by 2100 we will have a new economic system. Unlike every previous system it
will not mainly depend on the exchange of human labor for goods and
services. It remains to be seen what it will be like. I hope it will be
better for everyone, and better for the ecology, but you never know how
things will turn out.

If cold fusion succeeds I expect it will last much longer than 500 years,
and ultimately it will have a larger impact than capitalism had. If the
human race survives for millions of years -- as I hope it will -- over the
next few million years cold fusion should have roughly the same impact as
the discovery of fire. Unless something better is discovered.

People who have not read history have the notion that institutions such as
capitalism, nation states, universities, corporations and so on have been
part of society forever and they will always be with us. Actually, they are
recent inventions and there is no reason to think they will continue
centuries into the future. They will continue as long as people find them
useful.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Jed Rothwell]

I posted the first ngram search incorrectly. Ngram is case sensitive unless
you check the box on the right. Plus, I think I should not have put "cold
fusion" in quotes. I am not sure how the quote sign works in ngram.

Here is a new search comparing LENR (all caps) to "cold fusion" (no quotes):

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=LENR%2C+cold+fusion_start=1980_end=2008=15=3=_url=t1%3B%2CLENR%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ccold%20fusion%3B%2Cc0

"Cold fusion" is much more popular. Putting "cold fusion" in quotes makes
them about equal. I do not know what that means.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=LENR%2C+%22cold+fusion%22_start=1980_end=2008=15=3=_url=t1%3B%2CLENR%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2C%22%20cold%20fusion%20%22%3B%2Cc0

The 19th century word was "lenr" (lower case). I do not know what it meant.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Jed Rothwell]

Kevin O'Malley  wrote:

 There was a software package called "cold fusion" which can obscure the
> results as well as the interest.
>

It turns out this is not an issue with ngram. "ColdFusion" the programming
language is one word with peculiar capitalization, and ngram is case
sensitive. Here is a search for "cold fusion" versus "ColdFusion:"

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22+cold+fusion+%22%2C+ColdFusion_start=1980_end=2008=15=3=_url=t1%3B%2C%22%20cold%20fusion%20%22%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CColdFusion%3B%2Cc0

"ColdFusion" is much more common. Separate searches show that "ColdFusion"
peaks at 0.00011% compared to 0.007% for "cold fusion."

To filter out news of "ColdFusion" with Google alerts, use this parameter
string:

cold fusion -coldfusion -"web hosting"


  LENR needs to repackage their name.   Maybe something like Anomalous
> Heating Event.
>

This would only confuse the issue and make it harder to find old papers. It
makes no difference what you call it.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Daniel Rocha]

First time I was called anti communist. LOL. I've seen revisionist, tankie
and all the crap.

2017-07-07 7:20 GMT-03:00 Che :

>
>
>
> People here do not want to see me get into a tiresome, useless argument
> with a know-nothing anti-communist puhtz like you.
> Simple.
> Like you.
>
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 12:08 AM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:

> You don't know how to answer that, because that is the plain truth.
>
> 2017-07-06 23:49 GMT-03:00 Che :
>
>>
>> Blah, blah, blah... not worth replying to.
>> WTF am I ignoring. You're just trying to score some dumb brownie points.
>>
>

People here do not want to see me get into a tiresome, useless argument
with a know-nothing anti-communist puhtz like you.
Simple.
Like you.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Daniel Rocha]

You don't know how to answer that, because that is the plain truth.

2017-07-06 23:49 GMT-03:00 Che :

>
> Blah, blah, blah... not worth replying to.
> WTF am I ignoring. You're just trying to score some dumb brownie points.
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Frank Znidarsic]

I am sorry to report that there has been a considerable decline in interest in 
cold fusion. 


Yea!  I can see this with my books and apps.   "Energy, Cold Fusion, and 
Antigravity" was my best seller.  Now the best seller is "Electronics Project". 
  Sorry to say its time to move on and only consider cold fusion as a secondary 
activity.


By the way Steven Halking says that the earth could reach temperatures of 212 
deg F.  I thought that the increase was only going to be a few degrees C.


https://www.livescience.com/59693-could-earth-turn-into-venus.html





What's up with this?

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Kevin O'Malley  wrote:

>  There was a software package called "cold fusion" which can obscure the
> results as well as the interest.  LENR needs to repackage their name.
> Maybe something like Anomalous Heating Event.
>


LENR: 'Legitimate Engineering? Not Really".

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:

> Che Trotsky, you are ignoring material conditions, we do not know how Cold
> Fusion works, and historical conditions, that is, we are in capitalism and
> cold fusion is not trusted. Even in whatever form of socialism you
> subscribe, you'd have to either convince many other workers to see the
> importance of this subject. Just because you have a system where the rule
> of value does not apply, it doesn't mean science and scientists will work
> any differently.
>

Blah, blah, blah... not worth replying to.
WTF am I ignoring. You're just trying to score some dumb brownie points.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Kevin O'Malley]

 There was a software package called "cold fusion" which can obscure the
results as well as the interest.  LENR needs to repackage their name.
Maybe something like Anomalous Heating Event.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Axil Axil]

"we do not know how Cold Fusion works, and historical conditions, that is,
we are in capitalism and cold fusion is not trusted"

Cold fusion is a misnomer. The LENR reaction is the catalyzed decay of the
nucleon produced by intense nanomagnetism similar in nature to the
instantan based Fractional Quantum Hall Effect. The fusion effects are
produced by muons as they form muonic atoms. So fusion is a SECONDARY side
effect of the primary nucleon decay reaction which is the source of muons.

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:

> Che Trotsky, you are ignoring material conditions, we do not know how Cold
> Fusion works, and historical conditions, that is, we are in capitalism and
> cold fusion is not trusted. Even in whatever form of socialism you
> subscribe, you'd have to either convince many other workers to see the
> importance of this subject. Just because you have a system where the rule
> of value does not apply, it doesn't mean science and scientists will work
> any differently.
>
>
>
> --
>

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Daniel Rocha]

Che Trotsky, you are ignoring material conditions, we do not know how Cold
Fusion works, and historical conditions, that is, we are in capitalism and
cold fusion is not trusted. Even in whatever form of socialism you
subscribe, you'd have to either convince many other workers to see the
importance of this subject. Just because you have a system where the rule
of value does not apply, it doesn't mean science and scientists will work
any differently.



--

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 9:55 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Che  wrote:
>
>
>> Jesus Christ, you bourgeois types... the POINT is to CHANGE the World: a
>> concept you people ARE most absolutely unfamiliar with.
>>
>
> I have probably done more to change the world with computers than you
> have. Not always in good ways, but I had an impact. If I succeed at
> promoting cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I shall play an
> important role in changing the world more than Marxism and Capitalism
> combined.
>
> Plus I expect I know more history than you do, especially the history of
> Japan and China.
>


You'd be a fool to generalize those thoughts. But my whole life I've had to
deal with opinionated middle-class types like you.






>
>
> Anything real will NOT really die. Stop thinking so short-term and
>> personal interest.
>>
>
> Many real things have been discovered and then forgotten. Some were
> rediscovered, such as Mendelian genetics. There is no doubt that other
> discoveries and technologies were lost for good, because we have no idea
> how ancient people managed to do some of the things they did. When the
> University of Manchester set about recreating a partial scale working copy
> of the Newcomen engine, they discovered a great about it that had been
> forgotten.
>
> We have no idea how many discoveries, ideas and techniques have been lost
> because . . . they are lost. Trying to account for them is like the old
> joke about the absent minded professor telling students, "anyone absent
> today should please raise your hand."
>
> - Jed
>

As I said: apologia. In the worst sense of that word.

What's REAL is REAL, fella.
QED

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Jed Rothwell]

Che  wrote:


> Jesus Christ, you bourgeois types... the POINT is to CHANGE the World: a
> concept you people ARE most absolutely unfamiliar with.
>

I have probably done more to change the world with computers than you have.
Not always in good ways, but I had an impact. If I succeed at promoting
cold fusion and it becomes generally used, I shall play an important role
in changing the world more than Marxism and Capitalism combined.

Plus I expect I know more history than you do, especially the history of
Japan and China.


Anything real will NOT really die. Stop thinking so short-term and personal
> interest.
>

Many real things have been discovered and then forgotten. Some were
rediscovered, such as Mendelian genetics. There is no doubt that other
discoveries and technologies were lost for good, because we have no idea
how ancient people managed to do some of the things they did. When the
University of Manchester set about recreating a partial scale working copy
of the Newcomen engine, they discovered a great about it that had been
forgotten.

We have no idea how many discoveries, ideas and techniques have been lost
because . . . they are lost. Trying to account for them is like the old
joke about the absent minded professor telling students, "anyone absent
today should please raise your hand."

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Che  wrote:
>
> Scientific research should not be a popularity contest, right?
>>
>
> Perhaps it should not be, but alas, it is. We have to deal with the real
> world as it is, not as we might wish it to be. That concept seems somewhat
> alien to you.
>


Jesus Christ, you bourgeois types... the POINT is to CHANGE the World: a
concept you people ARE most absolutely unfamiliar with. To be charitable.




>
>
> *Especially* considering the funding circus that the usual 'vested
>> interests' have prostituted it into (like much else in life).
>>
>
> I doubt it.
>
>
>
>> If I were you people, this development would be almost my least concern
>> at the moment.
>>
>
> If people lose all interest in cold fusion, the research will die along
> with the few scientists now doing it.
>

Anything real will NOT really die. Stop thinking so short-term and personal
interest.







> So what does this say about all those people who've insisted that we stop
>> using the term 'cold fusion', because it is 'needlessly provocative'[sic]
>> -- and who came up with this 'LENR' euphemism . . .
>>
>
> I know the people who came up with the term LENR. It wasn't intended as a
> euphemism but rather as a more scientifically accurate way to describe the
> phenomenon. In any case, euphemisms never work. They quickly take on the
> negative connotations of the word they replace. That is why people come up
> with an endless series of words to describe, for example, privy, WC,
> toilet, bathroom, men's room, etc.
>
> - Jed
>
>
Bulldada. Evasion. Clearly so.

I continue to claim hypocrisy. And you've further proved it for me, here,
now, AFAIC.

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Jed Rothwell]

Che  wrote:

Scientific research should not be a popularity contest, right?
>

Perhaps it should not be, but alas, it is. We have to deal with the real
world as it is, not as we might wish it to be. That concept seems somewhat
alien to you.


*Especially* considering the funding circus that the usual 'vested
> interests' have prostituted it into (like much else in life).
>

I doubt it.



> If I were you people, this development would be almost my least concern at
> the moment.
>

If people lose all interest in cold fusion, the research will die along
with the few scientists now doing it.



> So what does this say about all those people who've insisted that we stop
> using the term 'cold fusion', because it is 'needlessly provocative'[sic]
> -- and who came up with this 'LENR' euphemism . . .
>

I know the people who came up with the term LENR. It wasn't intended as a
euphemism but rather as a more scientifically accurate way to describe the
phenomenon. In any case, euphemisms never work. They quickly take on the
negative connotations of the word they replace. That is why people come up
with an endless series of words to describe, for example, privy, WC,
toilet, bathroom, men's room, etc.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Che]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:41 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> I am sorry to report that there has been a considerable decline in
> interest in cold fusion. The number of Google alerts about the subject is
> far lower than it used to be. The number of people reading papers at
> LENR-CANR.org is down. The numbers usually goes down in summer when
> students take a break from universities, but this year the numbers are
> particularly low. See:
>

Scientific research should not be a popularity contest, right? *Especially*
considering the funding circus that the usual 'vested interests' have
prostituted it into (like much else in life). If I were you people, this
development would be almost my least concern at the moment.





> http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=1213
>
> Results from Google Ngram are less conclusive. Apparently the term "LENR"
> meant something in the 19th century and it was for more common than it is
> today. Both "LENR" and the phrase "cold fusion" have fallen in popularity.
>

So what does this say about all those people who've insisted that we stop
using the term 'cold fusion', because it is 'needlessly provocative'[sic]
-- and who came up with this 'LENR' euphemism, to replace it ..?

Bah. So much for these smart people...

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:



> It's cold fusion for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_ColdFusion .
>

I think the Ngram search will not find "ColdFusion," because it is one
word. My Google Alerts parameter avoids it:

cold fusion -coldfusion -"web hosting"

Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion has waned

[Daniel Rocha]

It's cold fusion for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_ColdFusion .