Re: [Vo]:Hunger
In reply to Jürg Wyttenbach's message of Fri, 27 Dec 2024 14:09:40 +0100: Hi, [snip] >What exactly do you understand under "cradle to cradle production process"? > > >I thought you are up to date with real clean energy/goods production. >cradle to cradle means everything you produce and use can be reused. All >production must become a cycle process. So the product design sales >process must include the decomposition/reuse. I agree, it should. That's one reason that cheap clean energy is important. It makes it possible to recycle much more. > >Clean energy today just means: Does not produce NO2/CO2 or micro >particles. But all the resources needed for clean energy still do. That will improve as more clean energy becomes available, and gets applied to the means of production. > > >Companies, that make things that don't sell, go broke. It's Darwinian >natural selection applied to companies. > >That's obvious but nature says the same. If you can't recycle you will break. >But worst is the human violation of basic Darwin laws like bringing the most >dumb/incapable to power (Trump, Xsi,Putin,...) or let the (genetically) most >sick reproduce. e.g extensive vaccination stops filtering of the unfit. Even >worse it may kill the fittest... Note that evolution only selects that which is most capable of surviving in a given environment. There is no judgment involved. As for those in power:- The government you elect is the government you deserve. (Thomas Jefferson - early US President). Note that "deserve" can be either good or bad. If people are smart enough to elect good government, then they are rewarded by being well governed. If they are stupid enough to elect a bad government, then they reap the consequences of their poor decisions. Both governments & the people eventually learn by their mistakes, and if they don't, then they suffer the consequences. > >Are you willing to lead by example, and migrate to a Third World country >where you wash your cloths by banging them on a rock in the river, >One more fantasy. Most Third World country do not even have water for >washing... Some do, some don't have enough. It isn't wise to try to farm in a desert, unless you have the aid of modern technology. >You can start at home: Just own a small number of good you really need. I do. > >Do not waste any food and buy/grow high quality food... I mostly do. > >What of course does not work in working slaves ghettos of major Western cities >where human cattle is housing to serve the mammon companies... They are not slaves, if they are free to walk away. Most that work, are glad to have a job. Natural selection of companies works here too. Those that pay best, tend to end up with the best workers. Supply and demand doesn't only apply to goods, but also to services. This is actually the most efficient way to run an economy, because decisions are made at a very low level by the individuals involved, rather than someone high up in government trying to make decisions based on inadequate information. > >Modern live will collapse soon (20..30 years). There are many reasons. More >man made pandemics like Covid, war for resources (Ukraine, Sudan..). Fat,drug >(high profit opioides) driven diseases (USA). Or mental disorder due to media >over consumption. I don't think it will collapse for any of those reasons. If COVID-19 was engineered, then I suspect the engineers have learned their lesson. You can't contain bio-weapons, which essentially makes them useless. New sources of energy will make better recycling possible, which will alleviate the need for resource wars, as well as providing fresh water through desalination. I don't think there have been all that many mental disorders brought on by over consumption of media. :) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The future of computer memory clearly lies with multi-layered SOT-MRAM. Fast as SRAM, dense as NAND, very low energy due to non-volatility, and near infinite rewrites.
Re: [Vo]:Hunger
Jürg Wyttenbach wrote: > Clean energy today just means: Does not produce NO2/CO2 or micro > particles. But all the resources needed for clean energy still do. > Not all of the resources, and not in equal amounts. Building a nuclear plant takes far more resources and more fossil fuel than the equivalent power in a wind turbine or solar cell, even taking into account the duty cycle. Most of the manufacturing of a solar cell can be done with electricity from another solar cell. Granted, some fossil fuel is needed for mining and material preparation. After a nuclear plant is in place, additional fossil fuel is needed to mine and prepare uranium fuel. No fuel is needed for wind, solar or hydroelectricity. Maintenance, such as cleaning the surface of a solar cell, is done with the electric power generated by the cell. Robin wrote: > Go check the facts. The populations of some Western nations are actually > falling. World population will soon stabilize, and then begin to fall. That is, unless there is a sudden change in people's behavior and they start to have many more children. The worldwide fertility rate is close to replacement (2.2 children per woman). The actual number of people is still growing rapidly, which gives the impression that people are having many babies. Not so! Nearly all of this growth is from older people living longer. For the last 30 years the cohort of people from age 0 to 15 has not increased much. It is stable at 2 billion. 80 years after a first generation cohort stabilizes, that cohort dies off, so the entire population remains stable from that time on. There is some population growth in sub-saharan Africa, but I do not expect it will continue. See: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN? See this video starting around minute 21, especially minute 23: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FACK2knC08E
Re: [Vo]:Hunger
What exactly do you understand under "cradle to cradle production process"? I thought you are up to date with real clean energy/goods production. cradle to cradle means everything you produce and use can be reused. All production must become a cycle process. So the product design sales process must include the decomposition/reuse. Clean energy today just means: Does not produce NO2/CO2 or micro particles. But all the resources needed for clean energy still do. Companies, that make things that don't sell, go broke. It's Darwinian natural selection applied to companies. That's obvious but nature says the same. If you can't recycle you will break. But worst is the human violation of basic Darwin laws like bringing the most dumb/incapable to power (Trump, Xsi,Putin,...) or let the (genetically) most sick reproduce. e.g extensive vaccination stops filtering of the unfit. Even worse it may kill the fittest... Are you willing to lead by example, and migrate to a Third World country where you wash your cloths by banging them on a rock in the river, One more fantasy. Most Third World country do not even have water for washing... You can start at home: Just own a small number of good you really need. Do not waste any food and buy/grow high quality food... What of course does not work in working slaves ghettos of major Western cities where human cattle is housing to serve the mammon companies... Modern live will collapse soon (20..30 years). There are many reasons. More man made pandemics like Covid, war for resources (Ukraine, Sudan..). Fat,drug (high profit opioides) driven diseases (USA). Or mental disorder due to media over consumption. J.W. On 27.12.2024 02:57, Robin wrote: In reply to Jürg Wyttenbach's message of Fri, 27 Dec 2024 01:58:16 +0100: Hi Jürg, You are an optimist! You make that sound like a bad thing. :) ..and you are clearly a pessimist. :) Go check the facts. The populations of some Western nations are actually falling. That's why their governments are (stupidly) introducing financial incentives to encourage people to have more children. Our technology is stone age even electric cars and photovoltaic. Only a cradle to cradle production process will solve the problem! What exactly do you understand under "cradle to cradle production process"? Our industry is not driven to sustain humanity. The only goal is profits. What you invent today is sold tomorrow and pollutes our planet before it reaches the shelves. People are becoming more aware of the fact that if they turn the World into a garbage dump, then that's what they will be living in, and they are starting to do something about it. Cheap clean energy, used to enable increased recycling, will help. Besides, if people didn't want/need what was produced, there would be no profits, so industry is just responding to the demands of society. So forget your humanism that is based on all mighty fantasies and not on our real world capacity. Feeding the poor and make them as dumb as us will kill the planet. Are you willing to lead by example, and migrate to a Third World country where you wash your cloths by banging them on a rock in the river, and go to bed at sundown, because you have no electricity, or are you going to continue enjoying your Western life style, based on a modern manufacturing economy? The things I am saying are not fantasies. In China every week a new coal power plant did start to operate and thus See alsohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China energy/production is cheap because the real working people are not paid and only higher party members get a share of the wealth. But halve of the China production is garbage - made from uncontrolled base materials - you can even buy in Walmart and of course online temu, Alibaba. Companies, that make things that don't sell, go broke. It's Darwinian natural selection applied to companies. I'm lucky as I will not see the flooding of Florida and most large cities at shores around 2100... But may be next lab virus will solve the issue... No, it won't, because population growth will eventually restore the population again, based on those who survive. How do you think we got to where we are today, despite hundreds of diseases that were incurable in the past? [snip] Humanity has always found a way out of its problems eventually, though they are not usually as quick to do so as might ideally be possible. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The future of computer memory clearly lies with multi-layered SOT-MRAM. Fast as SRAM, dense as NAND, very low energy due to non-volatility, and near infinite rewrites. -- Jürg Wyttenbach Bifangstr. 22 8910 Affoltern am Albis +41 44 760 14 18 +41 79 246 36 06
Re: [Vo]:Hunger
In reply to Jürg Wyttenbach's message of Fri, 27 Dec 2024 01:58:16 +0100: Hi Jürg, >You are an optimist! You make that sound like a bad thing. :) ..and you are clearly a pessimist. :) Go check the facts. The populations of some Western nations are actually falling. That's why their governments are (stupidly) introducing financial incentives to encourage people to have more children. > >Our technology is stone age even electric cars and photovoltaic. Only a >cradle to cradle production process will solve the problem! What exactly do you understand under "cradle to cradle production process"? > >Our industry is not driven to sustain humanity. The only goal is >profits. What you invent today is sold tomorrow and pollutes our planet >before it reaches the shelves. People are becoming more aware of the fact that if they turn the World into a garbage dump, then that's what they will be living in, and they are starting to do something about it. Cheap clean energy, used to enable increased recycling, will help. Besides, if people didn't want/need what was produced, there would be no profits, so industry is just responding to the demands of society. > > >So forget your humanism that is based on all mighty fantasies and not on >our real world capacity. Feeding the poor and make them as dumb as us >will kill the planet. Are you willing to lead by example, and migrate to a Third World country where you wash your cloths by banging them on a rock in the river, and go to bed at sundown, because you have no electricity, or are you going to continue enjoying your Western life style, based on a modern manufacturing economy? The things I am saying are not fantasies. > >In China every week a new coal power plant did start to operate and thus See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China >energy/production is cheap because the real working people are not paid >and only higher party members get a share of the wealth. But halve of >the China production is garbage - made from uncontrolled base materials >- you can even buy in Walmart and of course online temu, Alibaba. Companies, that make things that don't sell, go broke. It's Darwinian natural selection applied to companies. > >I'm lucky as I will not see the flooding of Florida and most large >cities at shores around 2100... But may be next lab virus will solve the >issue... No, it won't, because population growth will eventually restore the population again, based on those who survive. How do you think we got to where we are today, despite hundreds of diseases that were incurable in the past? [snip] Humanity has always found a way out of its problems eventually, though they are not usually as quick to do so as might ideally be possible. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The future of computer memory clearly lies with multi-layered SOT-MRAM. Fast as SRAM, dense as NAND, very low energy due to non-volatility, and near infinite rewrites.
Re: [Vo]:Hunger
You are an optimist! Our technology is stone age even electric cars and photovoltaic. Only a cradle to cradle production process will solve the problem! Our industry is not driven to sustain humanity. The only goal is profits. What you invent today is sold tomorrow and pollutes our planet before it reaches the shelves. So forget your humanism that is based on all mighty fantasies and not on our real world capacity. Feeding the poor and make them as dumb as us will kill the planet. In China every week a new coal power plant did start to operate and thus energy/production is cheap because the real working people are not paid and only higher party members get a share of the wealth. But halve of the China production is garbage - made from uncontrolled base materials - you can even buy in Walmart and of course online temu, Alibaba. I'm lucky as I will not see the flooding of Florida and most large cities at shores around 2100... But may be next lab virus will solve the issue... J.W. On 26.12.2024 20:54, Robin wrote: In reply to Jürg Wyttenbach's message of Thu, 26 Dec 2024 16:24:31 +0100: Hi Jürg, [snip] There are no hunger games running. Its about a missing social structure and reason in/for live. In the Gaza strip the times are so boring and anger so high that people want to win a war with their womb (10 kids each wive) , same in Africa etc.. In Western world, with seductive freedom enough money to survive we miss to "produce" children and our birth rates are around 1 child/couple. It is precisely because the Western World is wealthy that the population there is on the decline. That's why we should make everyone wealthy. There is nothing else intrinsically different between the Western World, and the Third World. In the middle ages, the birth rate in Europe was higher too. Poor populations tend to have more children to take care of the parents in their old age, because there are no or severely inadequate social support programs in poor countries, and due to poor medical support/hunger, many infants die, so parents have more children to compensate. So we must not stop hunger. We must stop the unsocial/inhuman behavior of western/China rulers that pour resources (medicine, fake religion) into under developed countries. If you grow the population (reduce hunger) then you will kill the planet even faster. No, see above. *So key is:: Learn to shrink the population! (and economy)* Something you don't learn in Harvard the church of Pluto. This method doesn't work. Witness the rapid population growth in the poorest countries. Making them wealthy and educated instead, along with the availability of contraceptives, is both more benign, and more effective. All the advanced races in the Universe have learnt this lesson. If you feed the dumb at the end you are the dumb. It's hard to grasp but I condemn Western development of the south countries since 40 years because most of these places are ecologically unstable and cannot self sustain an increased population without our Big Pharma that likes these Guinea pigs... So feeding without enforcing self sustaining rules is a "mad" thing and just the classic Christmass reflex. Which self sustaining rules are in effect in the West? My point of view has nothing to do with Christmas. [snip] Real wealth can come from a modern manufacturing economy (witness the rapid increase of the middle class in China). For that, two things are needed:- 1) Abundant energy, preferably both cheap and clean. (This also makes 100% recycling possible.) 2) The knowledge of how to make use of it. CF may be the solution for the first. Education is the solution for the second. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Drive your electric car every second day and recharge it from solar panels on your roof on the alternate days. The other days, drive your spouses car, and do the same with it. "Charge when the Sun shines". -- Jürg Wyttenbach Bifangstr. 22 8910 Affoltern am Albis +41 44 760 14 18 +41 79 246 36 06
Re: [Vo]:Hunger
In reply to Jürg Wyttenbach's message of Thu, 26 Dec 2024 16:24:31 +0100: Hi Jürg, [snip] >There are no hunger games running. > >Its about a missing social structure and reason in/for live. In the Gaza >strip the times are so boring and anger so high that people want to win >a war with their womb (10 kids each wive) , same in Africa etc.. > >In Western world, with seductive freedom enough money to survive we miss >to "produce" children and our birth rates are around 1 child/couple. It is precisely because the Western World is wealthy that the population there is on the decline. That's why we should make everyone wealthy. There is nothing else intrinsically different between the Western World, and the Third World. In the middle ages, the birth rate in Europe was higher too. Poor populations tend to have more children to take care of the parents in their old age, because there are no or severely inadequate social support programs in poor countries, and due to poor medical support/hunger, many infants die, so parents have more children to compensate. > >So we must not stop hunger. We must stop the unsocial/inhuman behavior >of western/China rulers that pour resources (medicine, fake religion) >into under developed countries. > >If you grow the population (reduce hunger) then you will kill the planet >even faster. No, see above. > > >*So key is:: Learn to shrink the population! (and economy)* > >Something you don't learn in Harvard the church of Pluto. This method doesn't work. Witness the rapid population growth in the poorest countries. Making them wealthy and educated instead, along with the availability of contraceptives, is both more benign, and more effective. All the advanced races in the Universe have learnt this lesson. > >If you feed the dumb at the end you are the dumb. It's hard to grasp but >I condemn Western development of the south countries since 40 years >because most of these places are ecologically unstable and cannot self >sustain an increased population without our Big Pharma that likes these >Guinea pigs... > >So feeding without enforcing self sustaining rules is a "mad" thing and >just the classic Christmass reflex. Which self sustaining rules are in effect in the West? My point of view has nothing to do with Christmas. [snip] Real wealth can come from a modern manufacturing economy (witness the rapid increase of the middle class in China). For that, two things are needed:- 1) Abundant energy, preferably both cheap and clean. (This also makes 100% recycling possible.) 2) The knowledge of how to make use of it. CF may be the solution for the first. Education is the solution for the second. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Drive your electric car every second day and recharge it from solar panels on your roof on the alternate days. The other days, drive your spouses car, and do the same with it. "Charge when the Sun shines".
Re: [Vo]:Hunger
There are no hunger games running. Its about a missing social structure and reason in/for live. In the Gaza strip the times are so boring and anger so high that people want to win a war with their womb (10 kids each wive) , same in Africa etc.. In Western world, with seductive freedom enough money to survive we miss to "produce" children and our birth rates are around 1 child/couple. So we must not stop hunger. We must stop the unsocial/inhuman behavior of western/China rulers that pour resources (medicine, fake religion) into under developed countries. If you grow the population (reduce hunger) then you will kill the planet even faster. *So key is:: Learn to shrink the population! (and economy)* Something you don't learn in Harvard the church of Pluto. If you feed the dumb at the end you are the dumb. It's hard to grasp but I condemn Western development of the south countries since 40 years because most of these places are ecologically unstable and cannot self sustain an increased population without our Big Pharma that likes these Guinea pigs... So feeding without enforcing self sustaining rules is a "mad" thing and just the classic Christmass reflex. J.W. On 24.12.2024 22:56, Robin wrote: Hi, According to the UN it would take about $40 billion annually to end World hunger. This is about 4% of the more than $1 trillion wasted annually on advertising. I say wasted because only a tiny fraction of people actually buy a product as a consequence of any given ad, ergo, advertising is extremely inefficient, not to mention extremely annoying to the other 99.9% of people who get it uselessly shoved down their throat sideways. A much better system would be a central online repository of product information that one could search for what one wanted. ebay, Amazon and AliBaba, in combination with search engines, are headed in this direction. Another small percentage of that wasted advertising money would cure all disease. Another small percentage of that wasted advertising money would solve the energy problem, and along with it, Global warming. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Drive your electric car every second day and recharge it from solar panels on your roof on the alternate days. The other days, drive your spouses car, and do the same with it. "Charge when the Sun shines". -- Jürg Wyttenbach Bifangstr. 22 8910 Affoltern am Albis +41 44 760 14 18 +41 79 246 36 06
