Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-21 Thread Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 19 April 2012 16:01, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: I liked Andreas's way of putting this earlier: Positive bias and advertorials *can* be odious, but activist editing with a negative bent

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-21 Thread David Gerard
On 21 April 2012 17:07, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote: Historically this is inaccurate, as the article states, the original phrasing was to abstain from doing harm, which is significantly different insofar as it implies a willed action. This didn't at all refer to medical

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-21 Thread Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 7:13 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 April 2012 17:07, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote: Historically this is inaccurate, as the article states, the original phrasing was to abstain from doing harm, which is significantly different

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Ken Arromdee
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, David Gerard wrote: If someone tells you to drive at 5 miles under the speed limit rather than to drive at the speed limit, he may be trying to keep you from getting too close to a line. If someone tells you *not to drive at all* rather than to drive at the speed limit, that

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Samuel Klein
I think you can share any or all of the following rules of thumb, in order: make proposed changes to talk pages. ask other editors to help you update an article. avoid editing articles about you/your organization directly, unless you are fixing vandalism or typos, updating stats, or adding

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 18 April 2012 23:29, Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net wrote: On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Charles Matthews wrote: Sorry, this is exactly the point. The conversation where we explain very patiently to

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Sarah
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 1:17 AM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: Continuation of conversation: Look, we're all impressed with Wikipedia. But you seem to be saying that to edit I have to put your project ahead of my day job; and so I think you guys are just a bit

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread David Gerard
On 19 April 2012 12:31, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: Continuation of conversation: Look, we're all impressed with Wikipedia. But you seem to be saying that to edit I have to put your project

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.comwrote: On 4/19/12, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: You do realise that there have been over 5,000 newspaper articles on our company in the last 10 years, and only three of them mention that product recall?

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 April 2012 12:31, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: Continuation of conversation: Look, we're all impressed with

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Ken Arromdee
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012, Charles Matthews wrote: If someone tells you to drive at 5 miles under the speed limit rather than to drive at the speed limit, he may be trying to keep you from getting too close to a line. If someone tells you *not to drive at all* rather than to drive at the speed limit,

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Charles Matthews
On 19 April 2012 15:22, Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net wrote: Rules can cause trouble, but they have one benefit: at least ideally, it's clear when you have or haven't violated them. (Many Wikipedia rules are not ideal, but that's a discussion for another day.) It's a lot harder to

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread David Gerard
On 19 April 2012 15:34, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: Those people, who do not have WP's best interests at heart, are always arguing for a disconnect between the letter and spirit of policy, because they have no interest at all in the spirit. Well, yes. The entire

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Charles Matthews
On 19 April 2012 14:03, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 April 2012 12:31, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread WereSpielChequers
No it isn't exactly the same for people and companies. Wikipedia has a whole bunch of editors whose hobby includes protecting BLPs, we don't have similar editors who genuinely care about the reputation of companies. Or if we do they aren't in the same numbers. Also if PR people are skewed towards

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Charles Matthews
On 19 April 2012 15:38, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 April 2012 15:34, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: Those people, who do not have WP's best interests at heart, are always arguing for a disconnect between the letter and spirit of policy, because

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Samuel Klein
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net wrote: If anything, it's worse for companies.  Nobody tells BLP subjects that because they have a COI, they can't even remove incorrect statements about themselves. A fair point. I liked Andreas's way of putting this earlier:

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-19 Thread Charles Matthews
On 19 April 2012 16:01, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: I liked Andreas's way of putting this earlier: Positive bias and advertorials *can* be odious, but activist editing with a negative bent has traditionally been the greater problem in Wikipedia, in my view, and is the type of

[WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread David Gerard
PR people who edited Wikipedia get crucified. Counterattack: reduce trust in Wikipedia. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120417113527.htm Paper: http://www.prsa.org/Intelligence/PRJournal/ The paper's message appears to be Wikipedia's rules need to change. (Also, Jimmy Wsles is a

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Charles Matthews
On 18 April 2012 12:48, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: PR people who edited Wikipedia get crucified. Counterattack: reduce trust in Wikipedia. snip Paper: http://www.prsa.org/Intelligence/PRJournal/ When the talk pages were used to request edits, it was found to typically take

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Thomas Dalton
They say you have to wait 2-5 days for a response after requesting changes as though that is a bad thing. I'm very impressed with that response time. How many commercial encyclopaedias can do better? On Apr 18, 2012 12:48 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: PR people who edited Wikipedia

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Thomas Morton
On 18 April 2012 13:38, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: They say you have to wait 2-5 days for a response after requesting changes as though that is a bad thing. I'm very impressed with that response

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: On 18 April 2012 13:38, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: They say you have to wait 2-5 days for a response after

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Thomas Morton
On 18 April 2012 13:45, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: On 18 April 2012 13:38, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Charles Matthews
On 18 April 2012 13:38, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: They say you have to wait 2-5 days for a response after requesting changes as though that is a bad thing. I'm very impressed with that response

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread David Gerard
On 18 April 2012 13:53, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: I'm not arguing Wikipedia is the solution. But the argument that printed encyclopaedias are better at this I know to be false. More generally, arguments that make a comparison between an idealised fantasy Britannica and

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread David Gerard
On 18 April 2012 13:55, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: But the real-life situation is that someone paid to edit has a boss and/or paymaster. Jimbo knows what he is doing here with sending out a soundbite, rather than citing the page. The boss can understand the

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Charles Matthews
On 18 April 2012 13:53, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: snip My specific experience was while consulting on another matter for a firm; they were surprised to find their name had been noted in connection with some years-before legal action (quite a disturbing one) in a

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Thomas Morton
To be fair about the time-criticality: it does matter in that mirror sites will refresh their WP dumps on some basis that probably isn't daily. OTOH we do offer the OTRS route also for complaints, and that presumably offers a better triage. Charles Unfortunately not. There is a

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: That process takes* much much longer* than 2-5 days. Yes, but it takes place *before* publication. :P Not at all. My specific experience was while consulting on another matter for a firm; they

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Tom Morris
On Wednesday, 18 April 2012 at 13:58, David Gerard wrote: Also note that in my experience, it is pretty much impossible to get across even to nice PR people that they have a really bloody obvious COI. I have spent much time trying. I would guess that this is because getting their POV in is, in

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread David Gerard
On 18 April 2012 14:24, Tom Morris t...@tommorris.org wrote: User:Fluffernutter gave a talk about paid editing last year at Wikimania, comparing it with needle exchange programmes. Much as my gut feeling is god no, don't give an inch to PR people even if they are claiming to act

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Andreas Kolbe
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: Yes indeed. Jimbo neither makes policy nor enforces it, of course. What we have here is an ongoing loop in being able to read WP:COI properly. I believe the guideline on COI to be the best available take

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Thomas Morton
On 18 April 2012 14:44, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: Yes indeed. Jimbo neither makes policy nor enforces it, of course. What we have here is an ongoing loop in being able to read WP:COI

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Ken Arromdee
This directly conflicts with the Wikipedia FAQ/Article subjects (2012) page that specifically asks public relations professionals to remove vandalism, fix minor errors in spelling, grammar, usage or facts, provide references for existing content, and add or update facts with references such

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Charles Matthews
On 18 April 2012 15:26, Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net wrote: This directly conflicts with the Wikipedia FAQ/Article subjects (2012) page that specifically asks public relations professionals to remove vandalism, fix minor errors in spelling, grammar, usage or facts, provide

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread Ken Arromdee
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Charles Matthews wrote: Let me get this straight. You are arguing It is okay to for Jimbo to tell the company something which contradicts policy because it's more likely the company will understand the non-policy than the actual policy. The COI guideline is not an official

Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: The counterattack of the PR companies

2012-04-18 Thread David Gerard
On 18 April 2012 23:29, Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net wrote: If someone tells you to drive at 5 miles under the speed limit rather than to drive at the speed limit, he may be trying to keep you from getting too close to a line. If someone tells you *not to drive at all* rather than to drive