JaWS undoubtedly has the best support for Braille displays out there and Apple sits somewhere in-between the best and the worst. I take your points regarding notes at meetings and I adopt similar methods to what you’ve discussed here. Having a Braille keyboard on a Braille Display is an added bonus, one can - as I do - completely disable speech on my Sony xPeria phone and just do my thing - taking notes or whatever - completely from the Focus 40 so the phone can be left in my pocket or bag. I’ve heard of some people going further, they use a headset as well as their Braille Display for that extra feedback that sound or speech might give them. I would find this irritating myself when I’m trying to listen to others around me and take in crucial points however its each to their own and I take my hat off to those who can multi task with their hearing like that.
> On 29 Jun 2017, at 5:19 pm, Gordon Smith <gor...@mac-access.net> wrote: > > I have re-routed this to the list because I think others may wish to > contribute to the discussion, > > Personally speaking, I would never be without my displays. At first out of > necessity, then out of choice, I started working without speech for the most > part, just relying on Braille. And Braille is where NVDA is quite a bit > weaker than JAWS, This is especially true when using a Focus display. Rapid > Reading mode can be extraordinarily useful. But where I find Braille without > speech most useful is in a meeting or conference situation where the speech > would be both intrusive to others and debilitating to me. I like to be able > to work privately in meetings as I listen to what is being said by fellow > attendees. Some of the discussions can be quite involved, and note taking is > essential for me. I have to concentrate really hard because of my dual > sensory impairments. And speech just makes things doubly difficult. > > So yes, Braille is, for me at least, a vital, absolutely vital tool. I use it > every single day of my life, and have used it professionally to both educate > and to enable me to perform my then job functions. > > Does anybody know what became of the Orbit reader project? I haven’t seen any > mention of that since late 2015 so did they fail to produce? If so, what a > waste of all that money, and how disappointing will that be to the thousands > of blind and visually impaired users who, like most people, cannot possibly > jump on to the Braille display ladder for the simple reason that conventional > devices are way beyond their financial limits. > > > ================================================= > > My compliments and kindest regards > Gordon Smith: > <gor...@mac-access.net> > > Accessibility & Information Technology Support Specialist.. > > Contact: > > • UK Geographic – +44(0) 1642 688095 > • UK Free Phone – 0800 8620538 > • UK Mobile – +44 (0) 7907 823971 > > • Australia Geographic – +61 38 82059300 > • US Geographic – +1 646 9151493Mobile/S > > ———————————————————— > > > >> On 29 Jun 2017, at 07:47, Dane Trethowan <grtd...@internode.on.net> wrote: >> >> A braille display is a bit of a hard sell when you’re talking to someone >> with speech who has never experienced the extra input you get when using a >> Braille Display. >> Fortunately I had experience with a Display before this, I used to have an >> Alva ABT80, a wonderful unit but in the end technology surpassed the display >> so I was faced with a stark choice, either buy a new display or don’t use >> one at all, reading Braille means a lot to me for all sorts of reasons but >> the main is that the user has a better idea of what the computer or device >> is doing than what one would when using speech, so try telling that to >> someone who has not used a Display before and see how you go, why should >> that person invest another word of notes in something else when speech does >> just fine. >> Regarding JAWS and this does surprise me somewhat. >> I’m now hearing the question quite often, “Why should I bother laying out >> for JAWS when NVDA is freely available?”, a question I thought I’d never >> hear asked and - the benefits of JAWS aside - its a fare question. >> >>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 1:52 pm, Gordon Smith <gor...@mac-access.net> wrote: >>> >>> That’s very true. It happens here every year. >>> >>> When I first bought JAWS 15, it cost me £645 for the Pro license. Now, that >>> same license costs £845 and is set to rise again later this year. The >>> falling rate of the Pound against the US dollar is a contributory factor. >>> But as I pointed out to our dealership, much to their displeasure, when the >>> Pound rises in value again, they conveniently forget to reduce their >>> prices. Thus, their profit margin goes up exponentially. I got very short >>> shrift when I made that comment to them a couple of years ago. >>> Nevertheless, it is true. >>> >>> ================================================= >>> >>> My compliments and kindest regards >>> Gordon Smith: >>> <gor...@mac-access.net> >>> >>> Accessibility & Information Technology Support Specialist.. >>> >>> Contact: >>> >>> • UK Geographic – +44(0) 1642 688095 >>> • UKFree Phone – 0800 8620538 >>> • UK Mobile – +44 (0) 7907 823971 >>> >>> • Australia Geographic – +61 38 82059300 >>> • US Geographic – +1 646 9151493Mobile/S >>> >>> ———————————————————— >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 04:10, Dane Trethowan <grtd...@internode.on.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Of course the price of Adaptive Technology is at the mercy of the value of >>>> our fluctuating currency’s to a big degree. >>>> To give you an example, I bought my Focus 40 Braille display in September >>>> 2015 and was totally shocked when I discovered the display had increased >>>> in price by over 20% a year later mainly due to the falling value of the >>>> Australian dollar against the US dollar, 20% may not sound all that much >>>> but - when we’re talking over a couple of grand - its quite a lot of money >>>> and thus very difficult to save for, I felt a Braille display was one of >>>> those products that I could save for until my dying day and it would >>>> still be out of reach. >>>> Yes, I could have purchased a Note Taking device and indeed the idea was >>>> most tempting given I had experience with the Voice Sense but I already >>>> had mobile devices such as an iPhone and Android devices which would work >>>> quite neatly with the Focus 40 and - having used those devices since - I >>>> can vouch for the integration. >>>> Actually I’ll go so far as to say that using a Braille Display with an >>>> Android device is - in some ways - more accessible and useable than using >>>> Speech on an Android device but perhaps that’s another topic for another >>>> day. >>>> Its the old thing with Note Taking devices too that annoys me, even given >>>> all the good work that Hims Inc and others do these devices still have >>>> their limitations though - with the adoption and use of Android which I >>>> amongst others had long been calling for - the limitations of Note Taking >>>> devices are now not so obvious. >>>> And a final word regarding the accessibility of android and Apps. >>>> Ever since I picked up and started using my Samsung Note4 device on 1 >>>> December 2014 I’ve been pleasantly surprised at just how accessible the >>>> majority of Android Apps seem to be or - if they’re not accessible for >>>> whatever reason - how willing developers of Apps have been to solve >>>> accessibility and other usability issues. >>>> >>>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 11:07 am, Gordon Smith <gor...@mac-access.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Pricing has always been a contentious issue, I agree on that point >>>>> totally. I still haven't heard any more about the release of the Orbit >>>>> Reader, which is supposed to be priced much more reasonably. But getting >>>>> back to your point. You were speaking of the convenience factors, not the >>>>> pricing. So leaving asside the pricing issue for a moment. From the >>>>> user's conpenience perspective, the issue of main stream technoloties has >>>>> now, by enlarge, been bridged by the availability of the Polaris and the >>>>> Touch. We are, after all, able to run any accessible app from the Play >>>>> Store on these devices. They provide both Braille and spoken feedback to >>>>> the user, as well as Braille input either by an internal Braille >>>>> keyboard, or via an external standard keyboard, if that's the preference. >>>>> >>>>> Therefore, with the obvious exception of the mobile phone side of things, >>>>> the issue of main stream has been addressed. And to a degree, the issue >>>>> of phone calls and text messaging can also be worked around by the Skype >>>>> application. This obviously means that it is technically possible to do >>>>> it all from the one single device. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I agree that the frustration of pricing remains as contensious as >>>>> ever. I, believe it or not, share in that frustration, despite having >>>>> been able to acquire a Touch last year. As somebody who is hoping to >>>>> become a fulltime professional in this field within the next few months, >>>>> I really need to get my hands on a Polaris so that I can train on the >>>>> device. But the same is true of modern main stream devices such as the >>>>> Samsung Galaxy S8, the soon to be released iPhone 8 or 8S Plus, and one >>>>> of the new iPad Pro models. >>>>> >>>>> Those devices are also quite highly priced which obviously has some >>>>> impact on my direction. I'm going to have to invest quite heavily just to >>>>> stay at the sharp end of the industry. So I can see where you're coming >>>>> from there. But you did kind of change direction. We were speaking from a >>>>> technical perspective, were we not? But again, yes I share your >>>>> frustrations regarding costing. >>>>> >>>>> ============================== >>>>> >>>>> My Compliments And Kindest Regards >>>>> Gordon Smith >>>>> 'Accessibility And Information Technology Support Specialist >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 28, 2017 4:55 PM, Dane Trethowan <grtd...@internode.on.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Yep we’re talking “Real World”. >>>>>> One of the problems in today’s “Real World” is that these Note Taking >>>>>> devices of which we lovingly speak are well beyond the reach of a lot of >>>>>> people so the idea of a Braille Display paired with a phone of some sort >>>>>> - IOS or Android - then becomes a most attractive one. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 1:19 am, Gordon Smith <gor...@mac-access.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, but two distinct devices. Have also to say that those who speak >>>>>>> from experience may be just a tiny little bit more qualified to do so >>>>>>> than those who do not. I certainly don’t mean to be fractious. But as I >>>>>>> discovered, experience in the real world is a huge benefit when >>>>>>> advocating one course or another. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ================================================= >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My compliments and kindest regards >>>>>>> Gordon Smith: >>>>>>> <gor...@mac-access.net> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Accessibility & Information Technology Support Specialist.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Contact: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> • UK Geographic – +44(0) 1642 688095 >>>>>>> • UKFree Phone – 0800 8620538 >>>>>>> • UK Mobile – +44 (0) 7907 823971 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> • Australia Geographic – +61 38 82059300 >>>>>>> • US Geographic – +1 646 9151493Mobile/S >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ———————————————————— >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 25 Jun 2017, at 17:30, Dane Trethowan <grtd...@internode.on.net> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And a forth choice actually, a mobile phone or tablet with a Braille >>>>>>>> display. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 26/06/2017 12:26 AM, Gordon Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>> Yes, I totally agree about keyboard. All I was pointing out was that >>>>>>>>> the option, and that’s the key word, “Option” doesn’t exist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That said, I do agree that the Polaris is a very nice device and has >>>>>>>>> excellent hardware specs. When it comes to note takers, however, we >>>>>>>>> now have 3 choices. There’s the HumanWare one, (which I like, and use >>>>>>>>> a lot), the Braille Sense Polaris, which I tried the other day, which >>>>>>>>> I’m sure I would come to like a lot if I had the opportunity to use >>>>>>>>> it extensively, and the ElBraille. I plan to buy an ElBraille for my >>>>>>>>> business needs as tat would be the best all-round device for me. I do >>>>>>>>> feel that both Hims and HumanWare kind of missed the boat a bit by >>>>>>>>> not including an. Option for mobile communications. That is one area >>>>>>>>> which EliTech Group has hit a winning note in my opinion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All that said, were there an upgrade option on my Braille Sense U2, I >>>>>>>>> would seriously consider that option. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 24 Jun 2017, at 04:05, Debbie Yuille >>>>>>>>>> <debbiey1...@optusnet.com.au> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But then you would most likely have a fold down keyboard that is >>>>>>>>>> noisy like the touch's keyboard. The Polaris' keyboard is super >>>>>>>>>> quiet and in my opinion, a lot quicker to type on than using touch >>>>>>>>>> braille. That is why I prefer the Polaris. I like that we now have >>>>>>>>>> choice with our notetakers, one that's designed for touch braille >>>>>>>>>> and one that is designed for people who want a quiet and fast >>>>>>>>>> braille keyboard. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Debbie >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Gordon Smith [mailto:gor...@mac-access.net] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 24 June 2017 1:42 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: Techno-Chat ... Technology Enthusiasm! >>>>>>>>>> <techno-chat@techno-chat.net> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Techno-Chat]: Braille Sense Polaris: First Impressions >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That is utterly the wrong approach. The Touch, for example, gives >>>>>>>>>> you the option. You don’t have to use the touch screen at all, but >>>>>>>>>> it’s there if you want too. The device is intended for the use of >>>>>>>>>> the vision impaired and the blind and, of course, the deaf blind. >>>>>>>>>> Like the Hims tablet, the Touch also has a vibrating motor which can >>>>>>>>>> be configured for events. And its touch screen is there for all. If >>>>>>>>>> you’re blind, you can toggle off the video output to conserve >>>>>>>>>> battery power, but even with the video disabled, you can still type >>>>>>>>>> on the touch screen and, optionally, still use gestures. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So I’m sorry, but I think that Hims has made a gross error of >>>>>>>>>> judgement there. Of course, it may be that the Samsung hardware on >>>>>>>>>> which the device is based did not easily lend itself to a touch >>>>>>>>>> screen. I think it’s a dreadful shame though, as with the inclusion >>>>>>>>>> of a touch screen it would have been a truly spectacular device. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Now, it is true that one can perform some touch gestures on the >>>>>>>>>> Braille display itself. So that may go some way to addressing the >>>>>>>>>> issue. I haven’t had the opportunity to try that aspect yet. But I’m >>>>>>>>>> sure I shall, and soon. But having played with the divide, in terms >>>>>>>>>> of its interface It comes a poor second in my opinion. In terms of >>>>>>>>>> specifications, it comes out the clear winner. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I need it to be understood that I am totally unprejudiced with these >>>>>>>>>> comments. I am not, as some people have accused me of being >>>>>>>>>> recently, a HumanWare man through and through. I’m just trying to be >>>>>>>>>> objective. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Jun 2017, at 10:37, Dane Trethowan <grtd...@internode.on.net> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think the absence of a touch screen on a device may very well be >>>>>>>>>>> a blessing for Hims Inc as not everyone is interested in a touch >>>>>>>>>>> screen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 3GB of RAM is more than enough, though some of the newer Android >>>>>>>>>>> devices have 4GB - and some 6GB - 3 is still ample, my absolute >>>>>>>>>>> minimum would be 1GB, the Neo Set Top Box I use has 2Gb and it >>>>>>>>>>> speeds along most of the time but with 1GB you do notice things >>>>>>>>>>> slowing down, another device I have - can't remember its name, its >>>>>>>>>>> an Android Desktop computer - only has 1GB. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Obviously I've not seen one of these machines but I can tell you >>>>>>>>>>> that I like stereo speakers on a device, they make the world of >>>>>>>>>>> difference even when listening to spoken word. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Does the machine have any Bluetooth capabilities? It would be nice >>>>>>>>>>> if you could stream audio from the unit to say a B&W T7, >>>>>>>>>>> headphones, hearing instruments or similar. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Conversely it would be nice to stream to the machine from say >>>>>>>>>>> another mobile device. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I like Chrome very much, I use it here on the Sony xPeria in the >>>>>>>>>>> Android world and on the Windows PC. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have to admit that - for me personally - I'm not at all >>>>>>>>>>> interested in a Note Taking device with a Touch Screen, I'm >>>>>>>>>>> thinking about the purchase of an ElBraille though I do like the >>>>>>>>>>> Hims Inc way of doing things. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I had a Voice Sense a number of years ago and I do miss that >>>>>>>>>>> machine in several ways though the software could no longer be >>>>>>>>>>> updated so it was pointless keeping that device. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I sincerely hope Hims Inc have done some work in the Wireless >>>>>>>>>>> connectivity department, on the Voice Sense the Wi-Fi was truly and >>>>>>>>>>> utterly dreadful. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Anyway thanks for letting us know about the device. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 23/06/2017 7:20 PM, Gordon Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Good Friday to you one and all >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've just spent a happy couple of hour teaching a client to use >>>>>>>>>>>> her new Braille Sense Polaris, whilst at the same time gaining an >>>>>>>>>>>> insight into the product myself. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst the Polaris has some interesting facits, it isn't a device >>>>>>>>>>>> that's on my own shopping list, for a number of reasons. So, let >>>>>>>>>>>> me tell you a little about the device, and why I've formulated my >>>>>>>>>>>> opinions of it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Firstly, like the Braille Sense U2, there is no touch screen on >>>>>>>>>>>> this tablet. I use that word very guardedly, for that very reason. >>>>>>>>>>>> Hims do call it a tablet though, so I guess I must also. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Polaris has a very Braille Sense look and feel. It has 11 >>>>>>>>>>>> physical keys on the keyboard. One key is a Return key, and there >>>>>>>>>>>> are also control and Altogether keys, harping back to Windows. The >>>>>>>>>>>> device is powered by Android 5.1 Lollipup. However, as the >>>>>>>>>>>> operating system evolves, so will the Polaris, to a degree. Some >>>>>>>>>>>> of the frameworks of Android are not yet updated for >>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility, which prohibits the same kind of rapid growth that >>>>>>>>>>>> we are seeing with Android. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As I was saying. Their are 11 physical keys on the keyboard, plus >>>>>>>>>>>> touch-sensitive function keys which, again, resemble quite closely >>>>>>>>>>>> the Braille Sense U2. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Braille display has 32 cells. Interestingly, the display >>>>>>>>>>>> itself has a Braille cell cover, protecting the display from dust >>>>>>>>>>>> and other possible harm whilst not in use. That is, I must admit, >>>>>>>>>>>> a very welcome a.ition. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> For reasons best known only to her, my client did not bring her >>>>>>>>>>>> case with her. So I didn't get to see that. But I am given to >>>>>>>>>>>> understand that it is, like the U2, a nice soft leather case with >>>>>>>>>>>> reinforced plates where the controls are located. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The device looks almost identical to the U2. With the noteable >>>>>>>>>>>> exception that the LCD unit is flipable, enabling easy access for >>>>>>>>>>>> someone with vision. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The technical specifications ofthe device are very interesting. It >>>>>>>>>>>> has an Octa-core Samsung processor, clocked at 3.1GHZ. It has 3GB >>>>>>>>>>>> of RAM, and a 64GB flash disk. The SAID-XC card reader is just the >>>>>>>>>>>> same as that of the U2. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Network support is good. It supports the new ACCORDING dual-band >>>>>>>>>>>> protocol, and is backward-compatible. It has the usual built-in >>>>>>>>>>>> software tools typical of the Braille Sense family, including >>>>>>>>>>>> electronic scientific calculator, word processor, UEB and Nemath >>>>>>>>>>>> compatible braille math support and a schedule manager. There is >>>>>>>>>>>> also the usual Contacts app, and all the other things you would >>>>>>>>>>>> expect of a Braille Sense. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm given to understand that all of the Sense tools have been >>>>>>>>>>>> re-written from the ground up, so they are not just ported from >>>>>>>>>>>> Windows Mobile. As I said earlier, the processor is a 64-bit >>>>>>>>>>>> Samsung Octa-core, <meaning it has 8 cores>, and one thing I will >>>>>>>>>>>> say is that it is us very very very fast! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It came out very favourably when I loaded a -plex PDF document >>>>>>>>>>>> into the reader. The rendering took just a fraction of a second. >>>>>>>>>>>> On the old U2, it takes upwards of 5 seconds to process the same >>>>>>>>>>>> ducument. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It directly supports wirless charging, has a USB 3.0 host port and >>>>>>>>>>>> can be charged wired using either it's own charger, <same charger >>>>>>>>>>>> as the U2>, or via the USB Micro client. >>>>>>>>>>>> On the front of the unit are the same media keys that you'd find >>>>>>>>>>>> on the U2, and the media player is handled in the same way as the >>>>>>>>>>>> U2. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Needless to say, Google is fully supported, so it is possible to >>>>>>>>>>>> import all of the apps you'd find in the Play Store. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The stereo speakers on the device sound quite good. I only had a >>>>>>>>>>>> quick listen, as I spent most of the time first sejting it up for >>>>>>>>>>>> my client, then showing her around the device. For me, as somebody >>>>>>>>>>>> used to the Hims way of doing things, it took no learning time. >>>>>>>>>>>> That, for some reason, amazed my client. She expected that she's >>>>>>>>>>>> have to leave the device with me so that I could set it up for >>>>>>>>>>>> her. No need for that. I was also a# to import her own network >>>>>>>>>>>> profile, so she can go home and start using it right away. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The web browser is quite interesting. those who like Chrome will >>>>>>>>>>>> be pleased that learn that the Hims browser is just a modified >>>>>>>>>>>> version of Google's browser. Modified so as to enable >>>>>>>>>>>> accessibilyoung right out of the box. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In summary, whilst I'm looking forward to helping Claire >>>>>>>>>>>> familiarise herself fully with her new device, it is not a device >>>>>>>>>>>> that I personally will be considering. I still believe that the >>>>>>>>>>>> BrailleNote Touch, whilst lacking in some respects, is a better >>>>>>>>>>>> all-round Android device. My main reason for saying that is >>>>>>>>>>>> because the Touch adopts a much more main stream approach to >>>>>>>>>>>> tablet uie. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst the Braille display itself supports multitouch gestures on >>>>>>>>>>>> the Polaris, I still like to be able to utilise the fully-fledged >>>>>>>>>>>> touch screen. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I hope to acquire an ElBraille shortly, so will give you my >>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts when I do on that device. I'd give the Polaris 7 out of >>>>>>>>>>>> 10. I'm sure Hims have their reasons for their apfroach. But it >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't an approach for me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ============================== >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My Compliments And Kindest Regards >>>>>>>>>>>> Gordon Smith >>>>>>>>>>>> 'Accessibility And Information Technology Support Specialist >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------N - ) jYi l ay7 z D1 . >>>>>>>>>>>> m秱Ƨ [ʋ z "u槶+ ? pj [ ӆ+, vz- z Z .n b b w *. >>>>>>>>>>>> ' . +r ڵ 2Y欲鞞 . X Z ޮ) '" + ~ ڟ'( + 2 צ >>>>>>>>>>>> . x *h h . + ~' h pz j) j{p b ^n u z 欢u >>>>>>>>>>>> r ʋ % G ǘ Z z| w b jw ֧E$ b >>>>>>>>>>>> jYi l a + Z m >>>>>>>>>>>> qǬ w M X ^r r ! !j : . ʋ ~ - :" b >>>>>>>>>>>> 躗 Zqǩ ky b >>>>>>>>>> a{ >>>>>>>>>>>> +u8^ z ^ ǧu Ơz - b k Ǭ ) zx" 歵 ! !j {^r r S >>>>>>>>>>>> + W |8 z [j ! ^~ + W ֛ ,j ל z ] >>>>>>>>>>>> + ל z gz z ^ . ^jǬzwZnV g ^r r zל z gz r i m >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> + + ] ,~ + W + ˩ ! !j t=== >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ********** >>>>>>>>>>> "Live each day as if you were goiing to die tomorrow, learn each >>>>>>>>>>> day as if you were going to live forever" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This post, like all posts to the Techno Chat E-Mail group has been >>>>>>>>>>> scanned by our server-side antivirus/malware solution. This should >>>>>>>>>>> not, however, be viewed as a substitution for your own security >>>>>>>>>>> strategy. 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Then, have them send a message to the list >>>>>>>>> processing engine at: >>>>>>>>> <techno-chat-j...@techno-chat.net> >>>>>>>>> To toggle on/off Digest (batch) mode for this group, please send a >>>>>>>>> blank message to: >>>>>>>>> <techno-chat-dig...@techno-chat.net> >>>>>>>>> To leave the group, please send a blank message to: >>>>>>>>> <techno-chat-le...@techno-chat.net>. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To contact the support address for this group, please write to: >>>>>>>>> supp...@techno-chat.net> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ********** >>>>>>>> "Live each day as if you were goiing to die tomorrow, learn each day >>>>>>>> as if you were going to live forever" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This post, like all posts to the Techno Chat E-Mail group has been >>>>>>>> scanned by our server-side antivirus/malware solution. This should >>>>>>>> not, however, be viewed as a substitution for your own security >>>>>>>> strategy. We assume no culpability whatever, implicit or otherwise, >>>>>>>> for any compromise to your systems as a result of opening any post to >>>>>>>> this group. Suffice it to say that we remain vigilant within the >>>>>>>> boundaries of reason. We strongly urge you to do likewise! You have >>>>>>>> been warned!!! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can find an RSS listing of all posts to this group at: >>>>>>>> <https://mail.mac-access.net:7025/list/techno-chat@techno-chat.net> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To encourage your friends to join this group, first accept our thanks >>>>>>>> for spreading the word. Then, have them send a message to the list >>>>>>>> processing engine at: >>>>>>>> <techno-chat-j...@techno-chat.net> >>>>>>>> To toggle on/off Digest (batch) mode for this group, please send a >>>>>>>> blank message to: >>>>>>>> <techno-chat-dig...@techno-chat.net> >>>>>>>> To leave the group, please send a blank message to: >>>>>>>> <techno-chat-le...@techno-chat.net>. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To contact the support address for this group, please write to: >>>>>>>> supp...@techno-chat.net> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> This post, like all posts to the Techno Chat E-Mail group has been >>>>>> scanned by our server-side antivirus/malware solution. This should not, >>>>>> however, be viewed as a substitution for your own security strategy. We >>>>>> assume no culpability whatever, implicit or otherwise, for any >>>>>> compromise to your systems as a result of opening any post to this >>>>>> group. Suffice it to say that we remain vigilant within the boundaries >>>>>> of reason. We strongly urge you to do likewise! You have been warned!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> You can find an RSS listing of all posts to this group at: >>>>>> <https://mail.mac-access.net:7025/list/techno-chat@techno-chat.net> >>>>>> >>>>>> To encourage your friends to join this group, first accept our thanks >>>>>> for spreading the word. Then, have them send a message to the list >>>>>> processing engine at: >>>>>> <techno-chat-j...@techno-chat.net> >>>>>> To toggle on/off Digest (batch) mode for this group, please send a blank >>>>>> message to: >>>>>> <techno-chat-dig...@techno-chat.net> >>>>>> To leave the group, please send a blank message to: >>>>>> <techno-chat-le...@techno-chat.net>. >>>>>> >>>>>> To contact the support address for this group, please write to: >>>>>> supp...@techno-chat.net> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> > ------------------------------ This post, like all posts to the Techno Chat E-Mail group has been scanned by our server-side antivirus/malware solution. This should not, however, be viewed as a substitution for your own security strategy. We assume no culpability whatever, implicit or otherwise, for any compromise to your systems as a result of opening any post to this group. Suffice it to say that we remain vigilant within the boundaries of reason. We strongly urge you to do likewise! You have been warned!!! You can find an RSS listing of all posts to this group at: <https://mail.mac-access.net:7025/list/techno-chat@techno-chat.net> To encourage your friends to join this group, first accept our thanks for spreading the word. Then, have them send a message to the list processing engine at: <techno-chat-j...@techno-chat.net> To toggle on/off Digest (batch) mode for this group, please send a blank message to: <techno-chat-dig...@techno-chat.net> To leave the group, please send a blank message to: <techno-chat-le...@techno-chat.net>. To contact the support address for this group, please write to: supp...@techno-chat.net> ------------------------------
