Monica Hall
Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:50:47 -0800
Well - so be it - I can't very well argue with the man............... BUT why
on earth did he show it this way when he uses the more 'normal' way for single
notes (eg as on page 78 as I mentioned in my last).?
Well - I think the answer to that is that at this early stage (1630) he and the
rest of them hadn't come up with a consistent way of distinguishing between
passages to be strummed and passages to be played in lute style. Leaving us
all a bit in the dark..
And why does he repeat his opening injunction in the last sentence - I'm v.
reluctant to mention this but are you sure the translation is 100% right - it
seems so odd!
Well - in my experience they never say anything once if they can possibly say
it twice or even three times...it is something to do with appearing to be very
erudite and scholarly.
If you have ever tried to read Ruiz de Ribayaz you'll know what I mean.
Here is the Italian for your predelection...
Quarto, Dourasi hauer particolar riguardo, che quando si suoner=E0 quei numeri,
che saranno posti doppo la lettere, si dour=E0 suonar semplicemente quelli,
cio=E8, non toccar, ne meno, ne piu corde, di quelle, che mostreranno, perche
cos=EC, oltre si sentir=E0 il vero effetto delle legature, e distintamente le
parti succeder l'una, all'altra, tale =E8 l'intention'mia; la qual osseruatione
far=E0 generale, e massime nell'Arie di Firenze passeggiate, Correnti Francese,
Toccate, Gagliarde, e Balletti : altrimenti sonandosi qualche numero di piu,
=F2 di meno, =F2 dissoneranno, =F2 riusciranno di poco gusto =E0 gl'Vditori.
Il che si osseruer=E0 benche il numero fosse solo, cio=E8 non si toccher=E0
altro, che quella corda, e tasto, che mostrer=E0 il detto numero.
Corrections will be gratefully received...
MOnica
Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In a different context - in the Corrente on p.60 in the first line there
are passing notes following Chord M3 and G. These are clearly !!! WHY
meant to be played as single notes. It is not possible to play those
following Chord G and hold the chord.
*****************************************************
I'm sorry but at this point I am afraid that I have to disagree with you
because Foscarini has explicitly said in Rule 4 that in this situation these
notes should be played as single notes.
To quote it again...
Fourthly particular regard must be had when playing those numbers which
are placed beside the letter. These must be played singly; that is to say
touching neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way
the effect of the ornaments will be felt and the parts will follow distinctly
one after the other; such is my intention. Which observation will be both in
general and especially in the Arie di Firenze Passegiate, Correnti Francese,
Toccate, Gagliarde, e Balletti. Otherwise if more or less numbers [than are
shown] are played it will succeed in awakening little pleasure in the
listener. This is to be observed even if the number is alone; that is to say
only touch that string and fret which the said number shows.
The piece in question is a Corrente Francese. On p.16 there is an Aria di
Firenze Passeggiata and throughout this piece you are supposed to play the
notes on the up strokes as single notes.
**************
RESPONSE
And I presume the down strokes as well
So to CONCLUDE - Is it in fact just him saying to use (as I think Stuart
suggested) what the Spanish called 'dedillo' (or similar spelling?) - in short,
a sort of single note strum? This seems to me to be the ONLY explanation left
after we've ruled out continuing to strum the chord or showing single notes
without strum sign (presumably played with alternating index and middle
finger......)
*************************
There is a certain amount of logic in marking them as up strokes because
they will be played with an up stroke with one finger.
If this rule doesn't apply in these circumstances - where does it apply?
QUITE -
*****************************
RESPONSE
In short, I do indeed still think that he knew what he wanted and was
trying, within the confines of the notation, to indicate what he actually did
So do I but I think that what he wants is something a bit different
from what you seem to suggest! YES (I'm sorry to say.................)
Monica
Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yes - I think we are more or less in agreement. I used to think
with Bartolotti that you should always repeat the chord with the auxiliary note.
But I have been re-reading the instructions in the earliest books
and suddenly had this feeling that perhaps I got it wrong about Bartolotti as
what he say is a bit ambiguous!
Monica
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Monica Hall
Cc: Vihuelalist
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini again -
Yes - I think we're reaching some sort of middle way. However, in
the case we were particularly discussing I still return to the strum sign which
I think makes all the difference - Rob shows well how it can be translated in
practice (even makes me want to return to F).
Incidentally, I gave the B example simply to show how general the
practice was (as I know you know) not because I'm still confusing the
two..........
Martyn
Monica Hall wrote:
Well - we are talking about Foscarini not Bartolotti.
In his instructions at the beginning of Book 1 Bartolotti does say
that you should hold the chord in place whilst you play the intervening notes
but it is not entirely clear whether you should always repeat the chord with
the passing note. In some circumstances I think that you should, and in others
perhaps not. He quite clearly indicates notes which should be played as single
notes - by putting 1 or 2 dots beside them.
Foscarini is another matter. His Fourth rule reads as follows
Fourthly particular regard must be had when playing those numbers
which are placed beside the letter. These must be played singly; that is to say
touching neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way
the effect of the ornaments will be felt and the parts will follow distinctly
one after the other; such is my intention. Which observation will be both in
general and especially in the Arie di Firenze Passegiate, Correnti Francese,
Toccate, Gagliarde, e Balletti. Otherwise if more or less numbers [than are
shown] are played it will succeed in awakening little pleasure in the listener.
This is to be observed even if the number is alone; that is to say only touch
that string and fret which the said number shows.
As I said, in the particular passage under discussion the single
figures don't follow an alfabeto chord but it seems to me that the same
principle applies. Otherwise the part writing is obscured.
However - as far as my specific query was concerned this isn't
really relevant, as whether or not you play them as single notes or in
combination with the preceding notes there are still only two notes in the
strum...
As far as the single notes which Stuart was referring to it is
fairly obvious that these can't conveniently be played whilst the alfabeto
chord is held and Foscarini has in fact said fairly clearly that they shouldn't
be.
But the general question as to whether you should should
incorporate the passing notes into the chords or play them as single notes
seems to be a bit of grey area. Perhaps it was left to the discretion of the
player.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Monica Hall ; Stuart Walsh
Cc: Vihuelalist
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini again -
Monica, why do you think that the single notes are not played as a
chord with any of the preceding note(s)? I realise this is your position but I
still don't understand why you hold it: as someone else has said, if F had
wanted this there's a perfectly clear way to intabulate it. As you know I
disagree with your view and find support in other tabs where just one note
changes in a strummed chord progression.
Numerous examples in other sources just one (from the real
Bartolotti 1640 top of page 19):
B,(B)1'/A3,(A)2,13/ etc, etc, etc.......................
Martyn
PS I do wish B's book 5 existed
Monica Hall wrote:
> I wonder if you've added at least one bar towards the end. I'm
sure there
> is definitely something dodgy about line 8, penultimate bar to
final bar
> on that line (bars 10-11 in Monica's transcription). I think
there is a
> bar - or more - missing and you have unconsciously compensated
for it.
You may be right - I haven't looked at that bit closely!
>
> Rob, while you have your guitar in one hand and the Edirol in the
other,
> try playing line one, second half of bar 4. The single note (a)
on the
> first course is marked with a strum sign. Can you physically play
the
> preceding chord and add the a? And even if you could, does it
sound
> remotely plausible as chord? And again the last two bars of line
two,
> especially the penultimate bar. Can you strum them? Could you
make a
> recording of a bit more of this piece?
All these notes are meant to be played as single notes. They are
not
intended to be included in the chord.
>
> Finally , line 9, bar 4. how do you add a top g to a full barre
Bb chord?
You don't - it's meant to be a G major chord - include the open 2nd
and 3rd
courses and it modulates to C minor...(K3)
And the penultimate note of the penultimate bar: how do you add,
> physically, add an a to a C minor chord? Surely this must be
single note
> (but it's got a strum sign).
Yes - it can only be a single note...
>
> I think Monica must be right in saying that some of Foscarini's
strum
> signs aren't actually strum signs. And there are strum signs all
over the
> place in Foscarini.
>
>
Hooray!
Monica
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 January 2008 16:40
>> To: 'Martyn Hodgson'; 'Stuart Walsh'; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini again -
>>
>> I've made a stab at interpreting this on the guitar:
>> www.rmguitar.info/temp.htm
>> I think this is what Martyn is getting at - please forgive me,
Martyn, if
>> it
>> isn't. Obviously it is only an attempt after a couple of
read-throughs,
>> and
>> I got a little lost, but the general idea is, I think, one being
>> forwarded
>> by Martyn. So apart from being slightly out of tune and hesitant
in
>> parts,
>> is there anything wrong with the interpretation? I think it is a
>> reasonable
>> assumption of Foscarini's intentions - anyway, it is his fault
for not
>> being
>> explicit!.
>>
>> Rob MacKillop
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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