Monica Hall
Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:15:07 -0800
Well - let's just agree to differ and leave it at that.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Monica Hall
Cc: Vihuelalist
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: 'Strumming' Foscarini (and others) - even more
agreement
Thanks for all this Monica. I won't prolong it but just one last thing
(again!):
But he DID use a way just to show lute style plucking ie just numbers with no
'strum' marks in the same pieces (eg aria d fir4nze). I still think that if no
chords (and I do accept this now) then it must(?) mean just index finger up AND
down (as said rather similar to the spanish...)
rgds
Martyn
Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well - so be it - I can't very well argue with the man............... BUT
why on earth did he show it this way when he uses the more 'normal' way for
single notes (eg as on page 78 as I mentioned in my last).?
Well - I think the answer to that is that at this early stage (1630) he and
the rest of them hadn't come up with a consistent way of distinguishing between
passages to be strummed and passages to be played in lute style. Leaving us all
a bit in the dark..
And why does he repeat his opening injunction in the last sentence - I'm v.
reluctant to mention this but are you sure the translation is 100% right - it
seems so odd!
Well - in my experience they never say anything once if they can possibly
say it twice or even three times...it is something to do with appearing to be
very erudite and scholarly.
If you have ever tried to read Ruiz de Ribayaz you'll know what I mean.
Here is the Italian for your predelection...
Quarto, Dourasi hauer particolar riguardo, che quando si suoner=E0 quei
numeri, che saranno posti doppo la lettere, si dour=E0 suonar semplicemente
quelli, cio=E8, non toccar, ne meno, ne piu corde, di quelle, che mostreranno,
perche cos=EC, oltre si sentir=E0 il vero effetto delle legature, e
distintamente le parti succeder l'una, all'altra, tale =E8 l'intention'mia; la
qual osseruatione far=E0 generale, e massime nell'Arie di Firenze passeggiate,
Correnti Francese, Toccate, Gagliarde, e Balletti : altrimenti sonandosi
qualche numero di piu, =F2 di meno, =F2 dissoneranno, =F2 riusciranno di poco
gusto =E0 gl'Vditori. Il che si osseruer=E0 benche il numero fosse solo, cio=E8
non si toccher=E0 altro, che quella corda, e tasto, che mostrer=E0 il detto
numero.
Corrections will be gratefully received...
MOnica
Monica Hall wrote:
In a different context - in the Corrente on p.60 in the first line there
are passing notes following Chord M3 and G. These are clearly !!! WHY
meant to be played as single notes. It is not possible to play those
following Chord G and hold the chord.
*****************************************************
I'm sorry but at this point I am afraid that I have to disagree with you
because Foscarini has explicitly said in Rule 4 that in this situation these
notes should be played as single notes.
To quote it again...
Fourthly particular regard must be had when playing those numbers which are
placed beside the letter. These must be played singly; that is to say touching
neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way the
effect of the ornaments will be felt and the parts will follow distinctly one
after the other; such is my intention. Which observation will be both in
general and especially in the Arie di Firenze Passegiate, Correnti Francese,
Toccate, Gagliarde, e Balletti. Otherwise if more or less numbers [than are
shown] are played it will succeed in awakening little pleasure in the listener.
This is to be observed even if the number is alone; that is to say only touch
that string and fret which the said number shows.
The piece in question is a Corrente Francese. On p.16 there is an Aria di
Firenze Passeggiata and throughout this piece you are supposed to play the
notes on the up strokes as single notes.
**************
RESPONSE
And I presume the down strokes as well
So to CONCLUDE - Is it in fact just him saying to use (as I think Stuart
suggested) what the Spanish called 'dedillo' (or similar spelling?) - in short,
a sort of single note strum? This seems to me to be the ONLY explanation left
after we've ruled out continuing to strum the chord or showing single notes
without strum sign (presumably played with alternating index and middle
finger......)
*************************
There is a certain amount of logic in marking them as up strokes because
they will be played with an up stroke with one finger.
If this rule doesn't apply in these circumstances - where does it apply?
QUITE -
*****************************
RESPONSE
In short, I do indeed still think that he knew what he wanted and was
trying, within the confines of the notation, to indicate what he actually did
So do I but I think that what he wants is something a bit different from
what you seem to suggest! YES (I'm sorry to say.................)
Monica
Monica Hall wrote:
Yes - I think we are more or less in agreement. I used to think with
Bartolotti that you should always repeat the chord with the auxiliary note.
But I have been re-reading the instructions in the earliest books and
suddenly had this feeling that perhaps I got it wrong about Bartolotti as what
he say is a bit ambiguous!
Monica
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Monica Hall
Cc: Vihuelalist
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini again -
Yes - I think we're reaching some sort of middle way. However, in the case
we were particularly discussing I still return to the strum sign which I think
makes all the difference - Rob shows well how it can be translated in practice
(even makes me want to return to F).
Incidentally, I gave the B example simply to show how general the practice
was (as I know you know) not because I'm still confusing the two..........
Martyn
Monica Hall wrote:
Well - we are talking about Foscarini not Bartolotti.
In his instructions at the beginning of Book 1 Bartolotti does say that you
should hold the chord in place whilst you play the intervening notes but it is
not entirely clear whether you should always repeat the chord with the passing
note. In some circumstances I think that you should, and in others perhaps not.
He quite clearly indicates notes which should be played as single notes - by
putting 1 or 2 dots beside them.
Foscarini is another matter. His Fourth rule reads as follows
Fourthly particular regard must be had when playing those numbers which are
placed beside the letter. These must be played singly; that is to say touching
neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way the
effect of the ornaments will be felt and the parts will follow distinctly one
after the other; such is my intention. Which observation will be both in
general and especially in the Arie di Firenze Passegiate, Correnti Francese,
Toccate, Gagliarde, e Balletti. Otherwise if more or less numbers [than are
shown] are played it will succeed in awakening little pleasure in the listener.
This is to be observed even if the number is alone; that is to say only touch
that string and fret which the said number shows.
As I said, in the particular passage under discussion the single figures
don't follow an alfabeto chord but it seems to me that the same principle
applies. Otherwise the part writing is obscured.
However - as far as my specific query was concerned this isn't really
relevant, as whether or not you play them as single notes or in combination
with the preceding notes there are still only two notes in the strum...
As far as the single notes which Stuart was referring to it is fairly
obvious that these can't conveniently be played whilst the alfabeto chord is
held and Foscarini has in fact said fairly clearly that they shouldn't be.
But the general question as to whether you should should incorporate the
passing notes into the chords or play them as single notes seems to be a bit of
grey area. Perhaps it was left to the discretion of the player.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Monica Hall ; Stuart Walsh
Cc: Vihuelalist
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini again -
Monica, why do you think that the single notes are not played as a chord
with any of the preceding note(s)? I realise this is your position but I still
don't understand why you hold it: as someone else has said, if F had wanted
this there's a perfectly clear way to intabulate it. As you know I disagree
with your view and find support in other tabs where just one note changes in a
strummed chord progression.
Numerous examples in other sources just one (from the real Bartolotti 1640
top of page 19):
B,(B)1'/A3,(A)2,13/ etc, etc, etc.......................
Martyn
PS I do wish B's book 5 existed
Monica Hall wrote:
> I wonder if you've added at least one bar towards the end. I'm sure there
> is definitely something dodgy about line 8, penultimate bar to final bar
> on that line (bars 10-11 in Monica's transcription). I think there is a
> bar - or more - missing and you have unconsciously compensated for it.
You may be right - I haven't looked at that bit closely!
>
> Rob, while you have your guitar in one hand and the Edirol in the other,
> try playing line one, second half of bar 4. The single note (a) on the
> first course is marked with a strum sign. Can you physically play the
> preceding chord and add the a? And even if you could, does it sound
> remotely plausible as chord? And again the last two bars of line two,
> especially the penultimate bar. Can you strum them? Could you make a
> recording of a bit more of this piece?
All these notes are meant to be played as single notes. They are not
intended to be included in the chord.
>
> Finally , line 9, bar 4. how do you add a top g to a full barre Bb chord?
You don't - it's meant to be a G major chord - include the open 2nd and 3rd
courses and it modulates to C minor...(K3)
And the penultimate note of the penultimate bar: how do you add,
> physically, add an a to a C minor chord? Surely this must be single note
> (but it's got a strum sign).
Yes - it can only be a single note...
>
> I think Monica must be right in saying that some of Foscarini's strum
> signs aren't actually strum signs. And there are strum signs all over the
> place in Foscarini.
>
>
Hooray!
Monica
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 January 2008 16:40
>> To: 'Martyn Hodgson'; 'Stuart Walsh'; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini again -
>>
>> I've made a stab at interpreting this on the guitar:
>> www.rmguitar.info/temp.htm
>> I think this is what Martyn is getting at - please forgive me, Martyn,
if
>> it
>> isn't. Obviously it is only an attempt after a couple of read-throughs,
>> and
>> I got a little lost, but the general idea is, I think, one being
>> forwarded
>> by Martyn. So apart from being slightly out of tune and hesitant in
>> parts,
>> is there anything wrong with the interpretation? I think it is a
>> reasonable
>> assumption of Foscarini's intentions - anyway, it is his fault for not
>> being
>> explicit!.
>>
>> Rob MacKillop
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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