Monica Hall
Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:09:47 -0800
Thanks for the very useful list of references. I knew that someone would pick
up on the fact that all the examples I mentioned were women! I think your
explanation is probably right. They look nice like that.
However the (male) players I have observed who do tend to play with the little
finger on the soundboard don't keep it glued there all the time - it seems to
be more of a point of reference to which they return in moments of repose (hope
that sounds suitably poetic). It is not something confined to the thumb in
rather than thumb out position either. But you certainly can't do elaborate
strumming like that.
The other thing about illustrations is that they capture a single moment in
time - and what is picturesque. What they can tell us is rather limited.
As with everything else I suspect different players did different things for
different reasons - yesterday, today and for ever.
Monica
I guess part of any possible differences between lute and guitar rioght hand
positions must be related to strumming: it is extremely inhibiting if the
little finger is placed on the belly (especially close to the bridge as the
lute) - tho not impossible as some of the pictures listed below suggest.
Further, and speculatively, the pictures you mention are of, presumably,
amatuer (and women! - sorry) players who might, indeed, frequently have been
taught a less florid, more 'ladylike', style requiring limited strumming (tho'
a couple of nice exceptions in the short list below). We note many other
pictures showing a much higher hand position with few representations of little
finger on belly, esp close to the bridge. Some examples of various types up to
early 18th C from Grunfeld (The Art and Times of the Guitar, 1969) in page
order (I make no comment on the text - or sex....):
LITTLE FINGER ON BELLY CLOSE TO BRIDGE
Engraving -Dame de qualite jouant de la Guitarre(Trouvain, Paris 1694)
Ditto (Berey, Paris c 1690)
Netscher - Lady playing guitar (1680)
Vermeer - guitar player (c 1670)
Teniers - guitarist (c 1670)
Quesnel - Young woman playing guitar (1681)
LITTLE FINGER ON BELLY BUT PLAYED HIGH
Fresco - Young woman playing a Guitar (Venice c 1650?)
Du Boullogne - The five senses (c 1630)
Raoux - The dangerous lesson!?/liaison (c1700)
NO FINGER ON BELLY PLAYED HIGH
Engrafing - Dame en habit de chambre (1675)
Amants Donnant une Seranade (Paris 1693)
Le Caffe de Rome (Paris c 1700)
Title plate of Foscarini's 4th book
Velasquez - Three musicians (c 1630)
Rombouts - Ditto (c 1630)
Rombouts - Musicians (c1630)
Ryckaert - A Musical Gathering (c 1660) NB - WOMAN!
Ryckaert - Hausmusik (c 1650)
De Boullogne- guitarist (c 1630)
Daret - guitarist (c 1660)
Coques - the duo (c 1670) NB Man and woman both playing v high no finger on
belly
Lely - Ladies of the Lake family (c1660)
Teniers - guitarist (c1670).
Schubler - Amours.... (c 1730?)
Watteau ' scene d'amour (c1710)
Watteau - Five different drawing studies (c1710)
Clearly, this list is selective (I don't know Grunfeld's criteria for
inclusion) but all this variation suggests (like with lute right hand
position) much need for proper comprehensive research. Nevertheless from
memories of other representations, I'd say it is a reasonably fair cross
section of pictures and suggests that MOSTLY the little finger wasn't rested on
the belly and that a highish hand position (say towards the rose) was common.
Finally, and I think of interest in this context, when the modern plucking
style came in (c 1800) many representations show little finger again on the
belly plucking between the bridge and rose (indeed, some of the great 19thC
virtuosi used this - Regondi, Mertz...). I presume this reversion is because
there was no longer much call for florid strumming.
Martyn
Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> my own experience. As to the issue of placing the little finger on the top
> (which is what many thumb-in lutenists do, also on the guitar...): this is
> not exactly supported by guitar related sources (do you know of any source
> saying that?), nor by iconography. On the contrary. It most likely was not
> a
> standard feature of guitar technique in the 17th century, although some
> will
> have played like that. It makes me wonder what you wish to prove by saying
> this....
On reflection I feel I can't let this go unchallenged. There is an
attractive painting of a girl playing the guitar by the Dutch(!) painter
Casper Netscher in which she is clearly shown playing with her little
finger
resting inside the moustache of the bridge. You can see this on the web
site of the Wallace Collection in London where the picture is on view.
There is also another painting of the actress Mary Davis by Peter Lely in
which it looks as if she could be resting her little finger on the
soundboard although it's not entirely clear. On p. 99 of Frederick
Grunfeld's book there is a painting from a 17th century fresco in Venice in
which she also looks as if she might be resting her little finger on the
soundboard. Another on p.126 by the French painter Quesnel. And of course
there is the Vermeer painting. Not so long ago Stuart put some
illustrations on his site from one of Pesori's books which shows a rather
odd position which could be thumb inside. I can't go through my entire
picture collection but I would say on the basis of the pictorial evidence
that there was considerable variety in hand positions. Of course whether
the pictures are accurate or not is another matter.
Do you know of any guitar sources which describe right-hand position at
all?
Perhaps you could lists these for us. On what basis can you claim that this
wasn't a standard feature of guitar technique?
Absence of evidence and considerations of whether or not illustrations are
accurate don't seem to have deterred you from claiming that the guitar was
often wire strung in early 17th century Italy. There is only the rather
crude drawing on the title page of Corbetta's 1639 book. How many guitar
books do you know which say that the guitar was wire strung?
Monica
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