Bob, I do not see any problem with the operation of the magnetic resonance machine you mention with regard to angular momentum being orthogonal to linear momentum. You can identify a source of angular momentum that arrives externally to the system, such as via the RF incident field to supply any change in total angular momentum measured. Sometimes the final source can be subtle like a change to the Earth's angular momentum due to application of a torque.
In my viewpoint linear momentum is associated with mass moving along a straight line relative to the observer. Angular momentum is likewise associated with rotation of mass about a point. You can select a new location and a velocity where the linear momentum of a closed system of masses cancels out to zero. Of course each moving mass can posses its own linear momentum, but the vector sum is zero. If, on the other hand a closed system of masses has angular momentum according to your measurements, then there is no point and/or linear velocity that you can choose which zero's out the system angular momentum. The two momentums are defined in a manner that allows them to be orthogonal. I do not recall any proven experiment that demonstrates the conversion between these two quantities. Dave -----Original Message----- From: bobcook39923 <bobcook39...@hotmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Sat, May 20, 2017 5:25 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law-- Dave and Bob-- In common nuclear magnetic resonance machines the angular momentum of nuclei are changed by a resonant radio frequency energy source in a strong ambient magnetic field. That field aligns the nuclear magnetic dipoles and creates new discrete potential energy levels for the nuclei. When excited to a new level by the radio frequency input, the nuclei are said to be in an elevated isomeric energy state. When the ambient magnetic field is shut off, the nuclei relax giving off EM energy. This energy from the relaxing nuclei is monitored to determine the location and concentration of nuclei which return to a ground state. I believe the energy associated with the various nuclear spin states is considered nuclear binding potential energy, but not associated with mass energy binding protons and neutrons within a nucleus. However, this potential energy of an isomer DOES add mass to nuclei. Thus, I would guess that transitions of nuclear species during LENR from one ground state to another ground state (with a different combination of neutrons and protons and lower net angular momentum) would involve coupling via a magnetic field to the orbital electrons of a metal lattice. You can call that energy mass energy, binding energy or whatever. It is a parameter of the nucleus in question in units of joules. Energy is energy no matter what force field is involved IMHO. Dave, ( I believe linear momentum can be co-linear (not necessarily orthogonal) with angular momentum for properties ascribed to a particle or system of particles. Even thought they have the same units mass-length/time, one must change in units of h/2pie and the other is associated with free particles in space and subject to uncertainty in its actual value reflecting Planck’s constant, h. ( I am not sure I understand your comment regarding classical physics.) Bob Cook From: David Roberson Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 11:29 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law-- Of course, in classical physics linear momentum and angular momentum are orthogonal to each other and can not be exchanged within a closed system. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Bob Higgins <rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Sat, May 20, 2017 11:16 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law-- This is interesting thinking. The idea that angular momentum, linear momentum, and energy are "conserved" is a hypothesis created and supported (as I understand it) by observation, not by derivation based upon a fundamental principle. While it would be a violation of the hypothesis, trading between these conserved quantities would not invalidate a fundamental premise (am I correct?). So, Bob, when you say, "Trading nuclear potential energy for metal lattice electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR", what is the nuclear potential energy that you are saying is being traded (exchanged) into the electron orbital angular momentum? What in the nucleus do you envision being traded? Clearly the nucleus is not as well understood as we imagine. If you read Norman Cook's book, "Models of the Atomic Nucleus", you will see the sorry state of things. Present models for the nucleus predict fission as occurring in equal portions, but experiment shows that is far from the case. Even though we rely heavily on engineering of nuclear fission, the models don't predict the characteristics of the reaction. Could the "smallness" of the constituents in the nucleus allow interaction with a zero-point field, where at such small scales physics is different than we know? Could the trading of "conserved" quantities be commonplace at such small scales? On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:30 AM,bobcook39...@hotmail.com <bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote: The following link contains interesting views on the subject of this thread. IMHO these are key LENR concepts. Trading nuclear potential energy for metal lattice electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR. http://www.quantamagazine.org/the-quantum-thermodynamics-revolution-20170502/ The following is excerpted from the article on thermodynamics: “Imagine a vast container, or reservoir, of particles that possess both energy and angular momentum (they’re both moving around and spinning). This reservoir is connected to both a weight, which takes energy to lift, and a turning turntable, which takes angular momentum to speed up or slow down. Normally, a single reservoir can’t do any work — this goes back to Carnot’s discovery about the need for hot and cold reservoirs. But the researchers found that a reservoir containing multiple conserved quantities follows different rules. “If you have two different physical quantities that are conserved, like energy and angular momentum,” Popescu said, “as long as you have a bath that contains both of them, then you can trade one for another.” In the hypothetical weight-reservoir-turntable system, the weight can be lifted as the turntable slows down, or, conversely, lowering the weight causes the turntable to spin faster. The researchers found that the quantum information describing the particles’ energy and spin states can act as a kind of currency that enables trading between the reservoir’s energy and angular momentum supplies. The notion that conserved quantities can be traded for one another in quantum systems is brand new. It may suggest the need for a more complete thermodynamic theory that would describe not only the flow of energy, but also the interplay between all the conserved quantities in the universe. The fact that energy has dominated the thermodynamics story up to now might be circumstantial rather than profound, Oppenheim said. Carnot and his successors might have developed a thermodynamic theory governing the flow of, say, angular momentum to go with their engine theory, if only there had been a need. “We have energy sources all around us that we want to extract and use,” Oppenheim said. “It happens to be the case that we don’t have big angular momentum heat baths around us. We don’t come across huge gyroscopes.” _”Popescu, who won a Dirac Medal last year for his insights in quantum information theory and quantum foundations, said he and his collaborators work by “pushing quantum mechanics into a corner,” gathering at a blackboard and reasoning their way to a new insight after which it’s easy to derive the associated equations. Some realizations are in the process of crystalizing. In one of several phone conversations in March, Popescu discussed a new thought experiment that illustrates a distinction between information and other conserved quantities — and indicates how symmetries in nature might set them apart.” Virus-free.www.avg.com
