Lovely. Is this something that the 389 team is willing to take up to NSS or
shall I go it alone?

Given that most things will work (if accidentally) anyone setting minssf is
likely to be quite surprised.

Thanks,

Trevor

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 9:24 AM Rob Crittenden <[email protected]> wrote:

> Trevor Vaughan wrote:
> > Interestingly, if I remove the cipher specification, I get the result of
> > ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256.
> >
> > Can you see if this also happens with your version of nss?
>
> Same as you're seeing, ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 is picked.
>
> rob
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Trevor
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:27 AM Trevor Vaughan <[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> >     So, I just ran this test with selfserv as you have above and
> >     everything worked as expected with s_client.
> >
> >     It seems to be something in 389 itself.
> >
> >     On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 6:32 PM Rob Crittenden <[email protected]
> >     <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> >         Trevor Vaughan wrote:
> >         > Going full circle on this, I confirmed using s_client that
> >         what I was
> >         > seeing was indeed happening but not for the reason that I
> >         thought it was.
> >         >
> >         > Given that the min_ssf is 256, the connection requires a
> >         256-bit cipher
> >         > and hash to communicate with the server.
> >         >
> >         > Strangely, the internal strength logic on the 389-DS side
> >         appears to
> >         > pick ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 *before*
> >         ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384.
> >         > Likewise, if I add any of the AES128 ciphers to the list after
> the
> >         > AES256 ciphers, one of the 128-bit ciphers will be chosen
> >         first. This
> >         > seems incorrect given that the server should be using the
> >         strongest
> >         > cipher suite available if possible.
> >         >
> >         > The client cipher order preference is completely ignored
> >         (which is fine).
> >         >
> >         > As pointed out in the last response, I did indeed need to
> >         explicitly
> >         > enable only the 256-bit+ hash/cipher combinations in the
> >         > confusingly-named nsSSL3Ciphers attribute.
> >         >
> >         > After figuring this out and dumping the internal supported
> >         cipher list,
> >         > I can confirm that the ciphers in the nsSSL3Ciphers list are
> >         the only
> >         > ones that are presented to the client.
> >         >
> >         > While not ideal, this does provide a solution to the issue
> >         where I don't
> >         > have to tell all system users that they need to nail up the
> >         cipher lists
> >         > on the client side in order for things to function properly.
> >         >
> >         > But that leaves me with two questions:
> >         >
> >         > 1) Why, when the nsslapd-minssf option is set in the global
> >         > configuration, does 389-DS not automatically prune any options
> >         that will
> >         > result in an unsuccessful connection.
> >         >
> >         > 2) Why is the internal cipher sorting order choosing weaker
> cipher
> >         > suites before stronger ones?
> >
> >         I'm pretty sure that 389-ds still uses NSS for server-side
> >         crypto and
> >         unless something has changed NSS doesn't do cipher sorting. It
> >         picks the
> >         "best" for you. AFAIR the server has no say in the matter.
> >
> >         But, as a goof I used a pure NSS server tool to see what happens
> >         and it
> >         picked the expected cipher.
> >
> >         Enable your two ciphers (in hex form):
> >
> >         $ /usr/lib64/nss/unsupported-tools/selfserv -n Server-Cert -d
> >         /etc/dirsrv/slapd-EXAMPLE-TEST/ -p 8389 -f
> >         /etc/dirsrv/slapd-EXAMPLE-TEST/pwdfile.txt -c :C02F -c :C030 -v
> -V
> >         tls1.2:tls1.2
> >
> >         run s_client:
> >
> >         New, TLSv1.2, Cipher is ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384
> >         Server public key is 2048 bit
> >         Secure Renegotiation IS supported
> >         Compression: NONE
> >         Expansion: NONE
> >         No ALPN negotiated
> >         SSL-Session:
> >             Protocol  : TLSv1.2
> >             Cipher    : ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384
> >             Session-ID:
> >         2AF9EFDDB3EA99C101C4E4F99A47CD479D294C15309D7E994ADA21C083D8E096
> >             Session-ID-ctx:
> >             Master-Key:
> >
>  
> 85646A59B24D5A88080227BD59E328C688910FB0B2E2BAD77D7B1A96F6A9A3ACBF74EEC6C844A7D59527152928580743
> >             PSK identity: None
> >             PSK identity hint: None
> >             SRP username: None
> >             Start Time: 1619562457
> >             Timeout   : 7200 (sec)
> >             Verify return code: 0 (ok)
> >             Extended master secret: yes
> >
> >         So even more confusing unless I've goofed something up, sorry. I
> >         didn't
> >         mess with minssf, maybe that does make a difference.
> >
> >         The ciphers are:
> >
> >         TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256   0xC02F
> >         TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384   0xC030
> >
> >         Don't mean to stir up the mud but this may be a question for the
> >         NSS team.
> >
> >         rob
> >
> >         > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 11:50 PM William Brown <[email protected]
> >         <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> >         >
> >         >     Then youll need to disable everything except aes256 then I
> >         suspect
> >         >     ... :(
> >         >
> >         >     > On 25 Apr 2021, at 11:39, Trevor Vaughan
> >         <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         >     <mailto:[email protected]
> >         <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> >         >     >
> >         >     > Well, in this case, I've got to be able to work with
> >         regulatory
> >         >     requirements so not much I can do there.
> >         >     >
> >         >     > Trevor
> >         >     >
> >         >     > On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 9:03 PM William Brown
> >         <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         >     <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> >         >     >
> >         >     >
> >         >     > > On 24 Apr 2021, at 22:30, Trevor Vaughan
> >         <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         >     <mailto:[email protected]
> >         <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > Hi Marc,
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > I was under the impression that it would pick the
> highest
> >         >     supported, but that doesn't seem to be what is happening
> >         based on my
> >         >     previous example.
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > Instead, it seems to just be picking the first
> compatible,
> >         >     regardless of strength.
> >         >     >
> >         >     > It choose aes128 over 256 because of processing speed,
> >         and "strong
> >         >     enough".
> >         >     >
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > Trevor
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 10:03 PM Marc Sauton
> >         <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         >     <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> >         wrote:
> >         >     > > about ciphers order and TLS cipher suite discovery,
> >         NSS will
> >         >     pick the one with highest strength from the available
> >         ciphers, and
> >         >     compatible with the TLS client ( handshake)
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > you can check the configuration with for example
> >         (replace the
> >         >     string m1 with an instance name):
> >         >     > > dsconf m1 security get
> >         >     > > dsconf m1 security ciphers list
> >         >     > > dsconf m1 security ciphers list --supported | less
> >         >     > > dsconf m1 security ciphers list --enabled
> >         >     > > ldapsearch -o ldif-wrap=no -LLLxD "cn=Directory
> >         Manager" -W  -b
> >         >     cn=encryption,cn=config | less
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > and to set ciphers (can be "delicate"):
> >         >     > > /usr/lib64/nss/unsupported-tools/listsuites | grep -B1
> >         >     --no-group-separator "Enabled" | less
> >         >     > > dsconf m1 security ciphers set xxxxx
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > doc ref:
> >         >     > >
> >         >
> >
> https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_directory_server/11/html/administration_guide/enabling_tls#setting_encryption_ciphers
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > and NSS source:
> >         >     > > ./lib/ssl/ssl3con.c
> >         >     > > ./lib/ssl/sslenum.c
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 4:57 PM Trevor Vaughan
> >         >     <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> >         wrote:
> >         >     > > William,
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > I do apologize! I'll keep that in mind in the future.
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > Thanks again for your help,
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > Trevor
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 7:50 PM William Brown
> >         <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         >     <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> >         >     > > Sorry to call this out, but my name is "William" not
> >         "Bill". I
> >         >     have personal reasons to dislike being called that name.
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > Regardless, happy to help out :)
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > > On 23 Apr 2021, at 22:11, Trevor Vaughan
> >         >     <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> >         wrote:
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Bill and Pierre,
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Thanks for the responses!
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > It sounds like I have to figure out how to configure
> >         the NSS
> >         >     library for 389-DS specifically.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > In EL8+ I know that I can configure the global
> >         crypto policy
> >         >     but I'm hoping that I can do it for the specific
> >         application. I
> >         >     haven't found anything in the documentation so far but at
> >         least this
> >         >     gets me pointed in the right direction.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Thanks,
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Trevor
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 4:42 AM Pierre Rogier
> >         >     <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> >         >     > > > Hi Trevor,
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > I do not think it is possible to specify the cypher
> >         order
> >         >     negotiation:
> >         >     > > >      I am not sure whether TLS protocol allow to
> >         specify an
> >         >     order when negotiating the cypher,
> >         >     > > >      but at 389 level there is no way to specify an
> >         order:
> >         >     > > > The NSS security layer provides the list of
> >         supported cypher
> >         >     and 389 use
> >         >     > > > nsSSL3Ciphers config parameter to enable/disable
> theses
> >         >     cyphers in the list (without changing the order)
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >     So my feeling is that if there is an order it is
> >         up to the
> >         >     different
> >         >     > > >      security layer implementations and may differs
> >         between
> >         >     the applications,
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Regards,
> >         >     > > >    Pierre
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 7:28 PM Trevor Vaughan
> >         >     <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> >         wrote:
> >         >     > > > Hi William,
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > In terms of the STARTTLS bits (in theory) properly
> >         configuring
> >         >     your client software mitigates the password leak risk. But
> >         this also
> >         >     happens with pure (non-RFC) LDAPS connections.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > The docs note that minssf applies to the crypto
> >         required bits
> >         >     as well as the SASL layer.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Ignoring most of that, my issue is that I don't
> >         understand why
> >         >     I have to nail my client software to ciphers explicitly
> >         known by
> >         >     389-DS instead of the two negotiating the strongest things
> >         possible
> >         >     out of the gate.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > For instance, if I use AES256 with a minssf=256,
> >         everything
> >         >     works just fine.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > But, if I use AES128:AES256:@STRENGTH (which should
> sort
> >         >     strongest to weakest) then access is denied.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > How do I get 389-DS to negotiate the strongest
> >         ciphers first
> >         >     (regardless of the method)?
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Thanks,
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Trevor
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 7:34 PM William Brown
> >         <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         >     <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> >         >     > > > Hi there,
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > > On 22 Apr 2021, at 03:52, Trevor Vaughan
> >         >     <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> >         wrote:
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > Hi All,
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > OS Version: CentOS 8
> >         >     > > > > 389-DS Version: 1.4.3.22 from EPEL
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > I have a server set up with minssf=256 and have
> been
> >         >     surprised that either 389-DS, or openssl, does not appear
> >         to be
> >         >     doing what I would consider a logical TLS negotiation.
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > I had thought that the system would start with the
> >         strongest
> >         >     cipher and then negotiate down to something that was
> >         acceptable.
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > Instead, I'm finding that I have to nail up the
> >         ciphers to
> >         >     something that the 389-DS server both recognizes and is
> >         within the
> >         >     expected SSF.
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > Is this expected behavior or do I have something
> >         configured
> >         >     incorrectly?
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > That's not what minssf does.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > minssf says "during a bind operation, reject if the
> >         encryption
> >         >     strength used is less than 256 bits or equivalent".
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > The "bit strength" is arbitrary though, because it's
> >         a concept
> >         >     from sasl, and generally is very broken.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Remember, minssf does NOT do what you think though!
> >         Because
> >         >     bind is the *first* message on the wire, the series of
> >         operations is
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >    client                   server
> >         >     > > > open plain text conn  ->
> >         >     > > >                       <-   accept connection
> >         >     > > > send bind on conn     ->
> >         >     > > >                       <-   reject due to minsff too
> >         weak.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > So you have already leaked the password!
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > The only way to ensure this does not occur is to set
> >         >     "nsslapd-port: 0" which disables plaintext. Then you
> >         *only* use
> >         >     ldaps on port 636, which is guarantee encrypted from the
> >         start.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > It is worth noting that the use of starttls over
> >         ldap, does
> >         >     *NOT* mitigate this issue, for a similar reason.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Caveat: If you are using kerberos/gssapi you can NOT
> >         disable
> >         >     plaintext ldap due to these protocols attempting to
> >         install their
> >         >     own encryption layers.
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Hope that helps,
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > Thanks,
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > Trevor
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > --
> >         >     > > > > Trevor Vaughan
> >         >     > > > > Vice President, Onyx Point, Inc
> >         >     > > > > (410) 541-6699 x788
> >         >     > > > >
> >         >     > > > > -- This account not approved for unencrypted
> >         proprietary
> >         >     information --
> >         >     > > > > _______________________________________________
> >         >     > > > > 389-users mailing list --
> >         [email protected]
> >         <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         >     <mailto:[email protected]
> >         <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >         >     > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> >         >     [email protected]
> >         <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         >     <mailto:[email protected]
> >         <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >         >     > > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> >         >
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> >         >     > > > > List Guidelines:
> >         >     https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
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> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > —
> >         >     > > > Sincerely,
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > William Brown
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > Senior Software Engineer, 389 Directory Server
> >         >     > > > SUSE Labs, Australia
> >         >     > > > _______________________________________________
> >         >     > > > 389-users mailing list --
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> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
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> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > --
> >         >     > > > Trevor Vaughan
> >         >     > > > Vice President, Onyx Point, Inc
> >         >     > > > (410) 541-6699 x788
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > -- This account not approved for unencrypted
> proprietary
> >         >     information --
> >         >     > > > _______________________________________________
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> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > --
> >         >     > > > --
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > 389 Directory Server Development Team
> >         >     > > > _______________________________________________
> >         >     > > > 389-users mailing list --
> >         [email protected]
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> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > --
> >         >     > > > Trevor Vaughan
> >         >     > > > Vice President, Onyx Point, Inc
> >         >     > > > (410) 541-6699 x788
> >         >     > > >
> >         >     > > > -- This account not approved for unencrypted
> proprietary
> >         >     information --
> >         >     > > > _______________________________________________
> >         >     > > > 389-users mailing list --
> >         [email protected]
> >         <mailto:[email protected]>
> >         >     <mailto:[email protected]
> >         <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >         >     > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> >         >     [email protected]
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> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > —
> >         >     > > Sincerely,
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > William Brown
> >         >     > >
> >         >     > > Senior Software Engineer, 389 Directory Server
> >         >     > > SUSE Labs, Australia
> >         >     > > _______________________________________________
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> >         >     >
> >         >     > —
> >         >     > Sincerely,
> >         >     >
> >         >     > William Brown
> >         >     >
> >         >     > Senior Software Engineer, 389 Directory Server
> >         >     > SUSE Labs, Australia
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> >         >
> >         >     —
> >         >     Sincerely,
> >         >
> >         >     William Brown
> >         >
> >         >     Senior Software Engineer, 389 Directory Server
> >         >     SUSE Labs, Australia
> >         >     _______________________________________________
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> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         > --
> >         > Trevor Vaughan
> >         > Vice President, Onyx Point, Inc
> >         > (410) 541-6699 x788
> >         >
> >         > -- This account not approved for unencrypted proprietary
> >         information --
> >         >
> >         > _______________________________________________
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> >         > Fedora Code of Conduct:
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> >         >
> >
> >
> >
> >     --
> >     Trevor Vaughan
> >     Vice President, Onyx Point, Inc
> >     (410) 541-6699 x788
> >
> >     -- This account not approved for unencrypted proprietary information
> --
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Trevor Vaughan
> > Vice President, Onyx Point, Inc
> > (410) 541-6699 x788
> >
> > -- This account not approved for unencrypted proprietary information --
>
>

-- 
Trevor Vaughan
Vice President, Onyx Point, Inc
(410) 541-6699 x788

-- This account not approved for unencrypted proprietary information --
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