Hey Kirk, thanks for the thoughtful post. And, just for the record, I'm not a CS guy. I was an English major and have never taken any sort of CS class. But i'm good at learning on my own.
On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech < [email protected]> wrote: > David, > Interesting initial post - like marmalade on a flakey croissant, a little > sweet and a little bitter. I've hammered a similar nail before: what is > 4D's vision of itself? What is the target market? Why does such a fabulous > product remain so unknown? Why isn't there better documentation? Let's > build the user base... There seems to be a resolute determination not to > pursue any of that sort of thing. To my American brain that seems just > weird. My wife has been very helpful in getting me to accept just how > "French" 4D is. These aren't prime motivators. I think Americans really get > jazzed about getting bigger, richer, and just having 'more'. 4D seems to be > about control and being happy. I don't know of many other software > companies that have been active for 30+ years and remained as closely held > as 4D has. OK, maybe some of us would fit that profile but we're pretty > small. Heck 4D itself isn't that big at ~$20million US. A number of their > customers are larger. I don't know if you've had a chance to see Laurent in > the past few years but every time I do I see a really happy guy. JPR is the > most affable curmudgeon I've ever met. I've never seen Thomas Maul not > smiling. And so on. Perhaps Atavan is part of the compensation package. But > the folks who matter in the company all seem pretty content with the way > things are and so I think that's the way things will be. Is it so bad being > happy in a world on the edge of oblivion at the hands of morons? > > Personally I think 4D's weaknesses and strengths are side by side with each > other. Or it's like a uroboros for a darker metaphor of the R release > cycle. The thing now is what made 4D cool 30 years ago - it's a single > package that allows you to do some of almost everything. You got your > relational database engine, you got your PHP, you got your Web thingy, you > got your JSON stuff, you got your graphical interface designer whizy, we > got plugins, we got components. Many of these are quite well developed and > some are just bolted on. You don't like the way we do databases then go > ahead and write your own database inside of ours. Heck now that we can > query a JSON field it's almost like noSQL, ar you can mimic noSQL. 4D > doesn't try to lead anything because there's no payoff with a small user > base and in some areas always lags (I'm looking at you security guys). This > makes it attractive to folks looking for a well equipped playground. Again, > it's always been that way. > > The most common 4D origin story I hear is similar to my own: it was 1987 > and I was doing some work for a company that needed a database to do a > specific thing, just like Steve said, and they were using Macs and I said > "I can do that" because I'd read an article in MacWorld or something > talking about the cool things you could do with this new program called 4D > and this was a great excuse to go spend the $500 or so to buy it. The thing > is that's about the only origin story I really hear. I know there are > others that's just the one I've heard most. In a very roundabout way this > brings me back to the frustrations I hear in your posts from time to time. > And you're not alone, just perhaps more willing to go on record with them. > You're like a real CS guy and while I can muddle around in the 4D middle > ground for the rest of my life you drill down into stuff, 'cause you know > about it, (and here's another metaphor) it's like hopping the fence at > Disneyland and finding there aren't real buildings on Main Street. So > that's why there's no actual records in City Hall, for example. (Stretching > it even further.) > > Reading back over this I see I sort of hijacked your post a little. Sorry > about that. For me I decided to stop trying to get 4D to do anything and > just decide for myself whether it was worth my effort to use it. As is. > Like any other relationship - accept the other as they are or leave. I > never successfully changed anyone but myself. And funny enough the more I > focused on that the happier I became with 4D. And you are totally right > about the JSON parser. I mean really. > > I will echo Steve's comment about how valuable I find your contributions > here and the times we've exchanged emails off line. The iNug is better with > folks like you. > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:19 PM, David Adams via 4D_Tech < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > You're right, I need more tools - and I'm find with that. 4D isn't a data > > analysis tool and I actually accept that part. But, yeah, I do get > > frustrated by some things, like, an incomplete JSON parser? Makes no > sense > > to me. > > > > Anyway, 4D has a ton of features I love and I'm fluent in it enough to > get > > things done quickly. It's absolutely my go-to tool for grinding and > > reprocessing data. It's great for that. And I don't think that's just > > because I know it already, I think it's actually pretty great at > connecting > > to a huge range of systems and tweaking stuff. > > > > -- > Kirk Brooks > San Francisco, CA > ======================= > > *The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do > nothing.* > > *- Edmund Burke* > ********************************************************************** > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) > FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html > Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech > Unsub: mailto:[email protected] > ********************************************************************** > ********************************************************************** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:[email protected] **********************************************************************
