Geoff -
what would you call the 802.11s approach? Is that mesh under or router over, or something in between?

David -
>> In the vast majority of wireless sensor networks in existance the
>> dominant communication pattern is data collection (from nodes in the
>> PAN to IP-based computers external to the PAN)

I'm curious what data you have to support this assertion. While I do believe that this may happen at some point in the future, I don't think that it's true today except in academic deployments. Data collection yes, but not to IP-based computers. When I look for commercial deployments in production, I see Eaton (Home Heartbeat) and Control 4 in home automation, and Emerson (Smart Wireless) in industrial. Very few if any of these systems are hooked up to IP-based computers.

>> History suggests that once IP routing is available for a particular
>> kind of link, sub-IP routing tends to dissappear.

I don't know this history as well as you do, but I'm willing to bet that IP routing only gets successfully adopted on top of link technologies that actually work.

My concern with this group is that it seems to be based on the premise that the only reason why WSN isn't taking off quickly is that we haven't had IP addresses for our motes yet. Do we really believe that Zigbee has had zero traction because it's not IP? Do we really believe that there are no real TinyOS products because it's not IP? Because that's not what customers and end users tell me. They say that those technologies simply don't satisfy their requirements (typically reliability and power). I'm looking forward to a world with IP-based motes and wsn routing. But I don't think that it's going to happen unless we acknowledge that our success depends on more than just defining the right header compression and routing protocols. We are intimately tied to L2 protocols in this space, and everyone to date who has ignored that has failed.

ksjp
Prof. EECS, UC Berkeley
Founder & CTO, Dust Networks

Geoff Mulligan wrote:
Very interesting and provocative question you pose at the end of your
message - "do we need mesh under?" I think and hope that this will
generate some discussion on the list.
I suspect that there are people on the list that will argue that mesh
under is fact (it is deployed today) and that of course we need mesh
under and will use standard layer 3 routing between 6lowpan subnets.
Currently this is the thinking within SP100 for industrial wireless.

802.15.5 is certainly looking at and, I think, plans to standardize on a
two different mesh under designs/protocols.

Utilizing trill is an interesting thought.  I don't yet know enough
about trill to comment on it's applicability.

Certainly the manet protocols might be applicable.

What is critical to this discussion is that if 6lowpan does not select
or generate a mesh under protocol (if one is necessary and used) then
there will not be interoperability between multi-hoping nodes.  If
mesh-under is not used (but router over is used for multi-hopping) then
all 6lowpan nodes can exchange packets and forward packets (but we need
to understand the implications of one node per subnet).

        geoff

On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 06:53 -0700, dculler wrote:
The argument for route-over is pretty simple.
1. In the vast majority of wireless sensor networks in existance the
dominant communication pattern is data collection (from nodes in the
PAN to IP-based computers external to the PAN) and control actions
(from controllers external to the PAN to devices within the PAN).
There are cases where data collection point and/or the controller is a
gateway device on the PAN, but this physical collocation is rather
artificial.  If is far more typical that where a gateway is deployed
it is used to bridge communication to other networks. This is true not only for wireless instrumentation, but wired
instrumentation as well.  See for example
BACNET: http://www.bacnet.org/Tutorial/HMN-Overview/sld028.htm and http://www.bacnet.org/Tutorial/HMN-Overview/sld029.htm and HART:
http://www.hartcomm2.org/hart_protocol/tech_info/eval_networks/compnet.html
and Wireless HART http://www.hartcomm2.org/hart_protocol/wireless_hart/architecture.html Routing onto or off the PAN utilizes a routable IP address for the
device within the PAN.  It is important for this address to be
compressible, just as when both endpoints are within the PAN.  No
matter how effective is the L2 mesh routing within the PAN, you still
need to deal with IP routing off the PAN.  This is, of course, the
purpose of IP routing.  Whatever mesh-under is done, there will also
be route-over.  The mesh-under path is, at least, one of the
route-over hops.  Possibly more of the IP hops may occur over 802.15.4
links.
2. It is very common that devices route between distinct networks that
use the same media, ie. distinct Ethernet subnets or distinct WiFi
subnets.  This will happen in 802.15.4 networks where the networks use
the same physical link, but different PAN_IDs, different channels (or
different sets of channels or different channel schedules), different
MAC layers, etc.  Even different meshing protocols.  They will be
stiched together by IP routing.
3. The Mesh-under protocol is currently undefined. 6lowpan is
sufficient to describe single hop communication.  It also identifies
the endpoints (original and final) of multihop mesh-routed
communication, but it does not define how the intervening hops are
determined or what information is exchanged to establish
routes.  Clearly it anticipates that such L2 protocols will be
developed and standardized.  However, if a single 802.15.4 hop is
performed per IP hop, any L3 routing algorithm can be used to set up
the routing tables and forwarding occurs according to the routing
tables.  (Worst come to worst, you can hammer the tables in place by
external means.) If mesh routing does become defined, IP routing can
be applied per L2 mesh path.  Thus, IP routing applies whether or not
mesh routing is defined.  All of the IP visibility and management
tools apply to the IP hops.  None of them apply to the mesh hops
within an IP hop.
4. Many IP routing protocols are defined and a diversity of protocols
has become the norm.  One of the key elements of IP is that it
separates routing from forwarding.  We tolerate the use of different
routing protocols in different settings.  These protocols set up the
tables and forwarding works across them.  We have had multiple
competing routing protocols apply to the same setting (e.g., RIP vs
OSPF in the campus area) and their relative strengths have become
clear over time. This has not been the case with link-level "meshing"; so far it has
been approached as a winner-take-all and unfortunately this means that
everybody must agree on the protocol before they have much experience
with the use of the protocol.  For example, in Zigbee we have seen
that after several years of development, but no broad usage, Zigbee
1.0 is obsoleted in favor of Zigbee 2006, which is incompatible and
also incompatible with Zigbee 2007, which is not yet fully defined.
We have seen numerous proprietary protocols, proprietary extensions to
standard protocols, and open research protocols for meshing that are
all incompatible.  In some cases they optimize for different aspects,
in some cases they integrate aspects of all layers of the stack.  In
any case, they don't play well together. So, one of the key virtues of
route-over is that we have an established framework and long history
of stiching together a variety of routing protocols to establish the
tables such that forwarding works across them and where we can gain
experience over time.  Call it "rough consensus and running code".
One might argue these aspects are sociological, rather than technical.
Well, the separation of topology formation, path selection, and route
table maintainance from forwarding is awfully important.  So are the
vast set of tools to gain visibility into IP routing.  At the very
least, source routing, exploration, etc. will need to be developed for
the PAN for mesh-under to mature.  It is an interesting question
whether you need to be within the PAN to utilize the equivalent of
traceroute.
5. History suggests that once IP routing is available for a particular
kind of link, sub-IP routing tends to dissappear.  Remember x.25 and
frame relay.  Of course, we do some form of "mesh" routing in switched
ethernets and mesh wifi, but generally it is transparent.  The link
looks like the unswitched counterpart.
So I think it is very clear that IP routing will occur over IEEE
802.15.4 links.  It is already there.  For every single hop 15.4
network it is done.  For deeper networks, there are many ways to set
up the tables. So route-over is a fact. The question should be "Do you need
mesh-under in addition to route-over?"  Why?
______________________________________________________________ From: JP Vasseur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 4:28 PM
        To: Dominik Kaspar
        Cc: 6lowpan; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
        Subject: [RSN] Comments on draft-dokaspar-6lowpan-routreq-02
Dear Coauthors, Few Comments on draft-dokaspar-6lowpan-routreq-02. First of all, I think that we will need to have that debate on
        whether we indeed need both a "Mesh-under" and a "Route over"
        solutions. If the answer turns out to be "yes, we need both" I
        would volunteer to write the ID capturing the pros and
cons ... In the meantime, here are a few comments: 1) I would suggest to use a consistent terminology for the
        "Mesh-under" routing. Not trying to quibble on the terminology
        here but this is quite important to avoid confusion with the
        RSN initiative. "Lowpan mesh routing" looks more like Route
        over.
2) Section 2 These fundamental features of LoWPANs can affect the design of
        routing solutions, so that existing routing specifications
        should be
        simplified and modified to the smallest extent possible, in
        order to
        fit the low-power requirements of LoWPANs.
We had that discussion before ... Yes, if one can find an
        existing protocol that meets
        the requirement and that can be adapted, then great. But
        whether any of the current
        protocols can be adapted to meet these requirements is not a
        given.
3) Section 2 In order to find energy-optimal routing paths, LoWPAN mesh
        routing
        protocols should minimize power consumption by utilizing a
        combination of the link quality indication (LQI) provided by
        the MAC
        layer and other measures, such as hop count. Route repair and
        route
        error messages should be avoided for minimizing the overall
        number of
        control messages and the required energy for sending them.
Two comments:
        * This is a difference with Route-over where we will define IP
        metric to reflect
        the link characteristics to be used by the routing engine but
        we do want to
        remain layer 2 agnostic, thus the need for a minimal
        abstraction layer.
        * Should we avoid "Route Repair" ? mmm ... I'm not so sure
        since there are
        applications that require fast rerouting to forward sensitive
        data. A cheap
        alternative is to compute disjoint paths but this comes at the
        path quality
        cost.
3) Section 3 Transparent IP routing between LoWPAN domains and higher layer
        networks must be provided bidirectionally. A LoWPAN mesh
        routing
        protocol must allow for gateways to forward packets out of the
        local
        domain and it must be possible to query a LoWPAN device from
        outside
        of the local domain. Strategies must be considered to avoid
        battery
        depletion of nodes by too many queries from higher level
        networks.
        End-to-end communication is not a design goal of LoWPAN.
This is one on my main motivations of a Route-over strategy. 4) Section 3.2 Because network layer routing imposes too much overhead for
        LoWPANs
JP> Which Routing protocol ? and link layer techniques are out of scope of IETF, LoWPAN
        mesh
        routing should be performed within the adaptation layer
        defined in
        [3]. Both addressing modes provided by the IEEE 802.15.4
        standard,
        16-bit short addresses and 64-bit extended addresses, must be
        considered by LoWPAN mesh routing protocols. It is also
        assumed that
        nodes participating in LoWPAN mesh routing are assigned only a
        single
        address/identifier and do not support multiple interfaces.
Just a note here to mention that L2Ns will more than likely
        support multiple
        interfaces thanks to multiple non overlapping frequencies.
Thanks. JP.
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