Hi Zach, 

Understood. The ND for 6LoWPAN draft now has a sentence included which
makes that a SHOULD. Thanks for pointing this out.
[Julien] ok

You will have to keep lobbying elsewhere to get that updated to a SHOULD
for general IPv6 ND...
[Julien] you are right, I will follow up on 6man and roll

Cheers,
Julien


- Zach

Julien Abeille (jabeille) wrote:
> Hi Zach, all,
> 
> 1 the ND section refering to per neighbor packet buffering is  "While 
> waiting for address resolution to complete, the sender MUST,
>    for each neighbor, retain a small queue of packets waiting for
>    address resolution to complete.  The queue MUST hold at least one
>    packet, and MAY contain more.  However, the number of queued
packets
>    per neighbor SHOULD be limited to some small value.  When a queue
>    overflows, the new arrival SHOULD replace the oldest entry.  Once
>    address resolution completes, the node transmits any queued
packets."
> 
> From a pure standard perspective, multiple queues are a MUST (one per
> neighbor)
> 
> From a certification perspective (Ipv6ready logo), there is a specific

> test for multiple queues (test number v6LC.2.1.2B).
> 
> From a deployment perspective, the feature is very useful, especially 
> for routers. What I would like is to make the MUST become a SOULD, and

> let the implementation choose to buffer as much as it can, depending 
> on the available RAM. As typical packets are small in sensor networks,

> this is feasible.
> 
> 2 this is not an issue specific to 802.15.4/6lowpan, but to any very 
> constrained device, over any layer 2.
> 
> Cheers,
> Julien
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zach Shelby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: vendredi 24 octobre 2008 10:52
> To: Julien Abeille (jabeille)
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Roll] FW: per neighbor packet buffering "issue"
> 
> Hi Julien,
> 
> This is a valid concern. The ND for 6lowpan draft (-00 coming today) 
> is meant to exactly fix the problems that standard IPv6 ND (RFC4861) 
> has for 6lowpan. It is not expected that 6lowpan nodes implement 
> RFC4861, but rather just ND for 6lowpan, which borrows only minimal 
> features from RFC4861. So I believe we can fix all problems here.
> 
> Are you referring to this piece of text from RFC4861?
> 
>     Once the IP address of the next-hop node is known, the sender
>     examines the Neighbor Cache for link-layer information about that
>     neighbor.  If no entry exists, the sender creates one, sets its 
> state
>     to INCOMPLETE, initiates Address Resolution, and then queues the 
> data
>     packet pending completion of address resolution.  For multicast-
>     capable interfaces Address Resolution consists of sending a
Neighbor
>     Solicitation message and waiting for a Neighbor Advertisement.
When
>     a Neighbor Advertisement response is received, the link-layer
>     addresses is entered in the Neighbor Cache entry and the queued
>     packet is transmitted.  The address resolution mechanism is 
> described
>     in detail in Section 7.2.
> 
> That doesn't tell me that you need a *separate* buffer for each 
> neighbor, just that you need to buffer the packet while performing 
> address resolution. A minimum IPv6 implementation should work with 2 
> buffers then?
> 
> Currently the draft specifies that 6lowpan nodes do not need to 
> subscribe to the all-nodes multicast and are not required to answer 
> multicast NS messages, asnwering unicast NS is also optional. Here is 
> the current text from our draft:
> 
>     A LoWPAN node does not use multicast for its Neighbor Solicitation

> as
>     prescribed by the ND protocol [RFC4861] and oDAD [RFC4429].  For
>     lookup purposes, all NS messages are sent in unicast to the Edge
>     Router, that answers in unicast as well.  The message is a
standard
>     Neighbor Solicitation but for the destination that set to the Edge
>     Router address or the well known 6LOWPAN_ER anycast address as
>     opposed to the solicited-node multicast address for the
destination
>     address.
> 
>     The Target link-layer address in the response is either that of
the
>     destination if a short cut is possible over the LoWPAN, or that of
>     the Edge Router if the destination is reachable over the Transit
>     Link, in which case the Edge Router will terminate 6LoWPAN and
relay
>     the packet.
> 
>     A 6LoWPAN node does not need to join the solicited-node multicast
>     address for its own addresses and should not have to answer a
>     multicast Neighbor Solicitation.  It may be programmed to answer a
>     unicast NS but that is not required by this specification.
> 
> - Zach
> 
> Julien Abeille (jabeille) wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I started a thread on 6man about one issue in Neighbor Discovery 
>> which
> 
>> is extremely costly for embedded device:
>> While performing address resolution for a neighbor, a node must be 
>> able to buffer at least one packet for the neighbor.
>>
>> It means if your neighbor cache can support 4 neighbors, you must 
>> allocate 5K RAM for this buffering, 10K for 8 neighbors. This is very

>> costly and will prevent most constrained platforms to be IPv6
> compliant.
>> I feel that without this, a node with 4K of RAM can be compliant. If 
>> the standard is not revised, you will probably need to upgrade to a 
>> chip with 16K RAM.
>>
>> This is true on any L2, not specific to 802.15.4, and also true with 
>> the neighbor discovery extensions 6lowpan is working on.
>>
>> I think this is critical we manage to have neighbor discovery revised

>> on this point.
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Julien
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roll mailing list
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll
> 

-- 

Zach Shelby
Head of Research
Sensinode Ltd.
Kidekuja 2
88610 Vuokatti
FINLAND

mobile: +358 40 7796297

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