Hello Pascal,

Thanks a lot for your review, feedback and pointers to further
applicability of this approach.

Best,
/Marco

On 4/4/19 4:59 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> I concur with Michael, this is interesting work.
>
> Note that 
> 1) It is possible to commute only a subset of the channel offsets at a given 
> time offset. This reduces the number of nodes that need to know about the 
> swap and thus the exposure to a leakage.
> 2) security is not the only reason why swapping is useful. As you know, under 
> constant conditions, pairs of nodes will suffer from multipath fading on some 
> channels and not on others. Once this has been observed, it is possible to do 
> a selective swap to avoid the particular channels that affect a particular 
> pair of nodes. 
> 3) I have IPR on that sort of stuff (USPTO 9,673,856); it is not exactly the 
> method you propose but close enough. Just in case I'll ask to publish terms.
>
> All the best,
>
> Pascal
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 6tisch <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Marco Tiloca
>> Sent: jeudi 4 avril 2019 09:05
>> To: Michael Richardson <[email protected]>; [email protected]
>> Cc: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [6tisch] draft-tiloca-6tisch-robust-scheduling-01 --- rekeying
>> permutation key
>>
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> Thank you very much for your review!
>>
>> We'll definitely take into account your comments for the next version.
>>
>> Please, find also some answers inline.
>>
>> Best,
>> /Marco
>>
>> On 4/3/19 3:06 AM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>> I read draft-tiloca-6tisch-robust-scheduling-01.
>>>
>>> I found this to be an interesting way to both announce the schedule,
>>> and yet, hide it.  Very well done.
>> <MT>
>> Thanks!
>> </MT>
>>
>>> I have some initial comment about the section 3.1 about the adversary.
>>> I wondered about why someone would do this.  What's the benefit.
>>>
>>> It occured to me that an important point about the selective jamming
>>> is that an attacker can mess with a competitors network while still
>>> permitting their own network to operate!  That might be worth adding.
>> <MT>
>> It's a very good point! We'll add this as an attack motivation in Section 
>> 3.1.
>> </MT>
>>
>>> The document seems well written, although I'd like to have some
>>> example keys and show how they permute things in practice so that
>>> implementors can validate their work.
>> <MT>
>> Right, we will produce an example, possibly as an Appendix referred at the 
>> end
>> of Section 4.
>> </MT>
>>
>>
>>> The additions to CoJP seems well done, I'm so glad we changed that to
>>> a hash From an array :-)
>>>
>>> If the permutation is replaced whenever the network key is changed,
>>> which means that the permutation is going to change!  This means that
>>> some nodes could be on the new permutation while others are on the old.
>>>
>>> A thought to deal with this is that the new permutation is not used
>>> until the node switches to the new keys.  EXCEPT that the adjacent
>>> nodes will now not be listening at the right time, won't hear traffic 
>>> encrypted
>> with the new
>>> key, and won't change over themselves.   Authenticated enhanced beacons
>> would
>>> perhaps help here.  Maybe I'm wrong about this problem.
>> <MT>
>> This seems to deserve some more text in the Security Considerations of
>> Section 6.2, such as the following points.
>>
>> The new link keys and permutation keys are expected to be distributed
>> together, just like for the described provisioning through the CoJP Join
>> Response, possibly through the same procedure described in [1].
>>
>> After a rekeying process is completed, a node should indeed start using the
>> new permutation keys once switched to the new link keys only, i.e.
>> after it has discarded the old key material as per the handling of the 
>> "link-layer
>> key set" in [2].
>>
>> If a node A discards the old key material (considerably) before a node B, 
>> they
>> will be temporarily unaligned. That is, node B would temporarily secure
>> outgoing messages still using the old key material [2] that A does not own
>> anymore, and would still permute its schedule the old way.
>>
>> Eventually, B will also discard the old key material, e.g. after receiving 
>> and
>> successfully security processing an incoming message secured with the new
>> key material [2], of course though while still over its old-fashion-permuted
>> schedule. Here enhanced beacons authenticated with the new key material
>> seem to help. Also, a local upper bound can be enforced through a parameter
>> similar to COJP_REKEYING_GUARD_TIME [2].
>> Then, the two nodes will be aligned again on both processing secure messages
>> and permuting their schedule.
>>
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>>
>> [1]
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security-09#section-8.2
>> [2]
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security-09#section-8.4
>>
>> </MT>
>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Richardson <[email protected]>, Sandelman Software Works
>>> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>> --
>> Marco Tiloca
>> Ph.D., Senior Researcher
>>
>> RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
>> Division ICT
>> Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistagången 16
>> SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)
>>
>> Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
>> https://www.ri.se
>>

-- 
Marco Tiloca
Ph.D., Senior Researcher

RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
Division ICT
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistagången 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
https://www.ri.se


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