Me, I don't want Plan9 to work like everything else, because what's the point in that, to have the same stuff on a different OS? What does that get you? Nothing.
Everybody thought 9p was kooky 25 years ago, but now 9p file systems are everywhere. Adrian On June 5, 2025 8:42:12 AM EDT, Daniel Maslowski via 9fans <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey fans, > > Here's the voice from the abyss. > > Prelude: > > Let me begin with something I have experienced in this community, and I > would like to shine some light on the effects of the mentality behind. I'll > be subtle. > Please read to the end, and I'm sure it will make you happy. > > This first part mainly goes out to people assuming that I or anyone else > might be just too much "used to Linux": Nope, you're wrong, plain wrong. > > Part 1: Where I am coming from > > Let me explain. I am using machines to assist me with what I do, and if one > doesn't fit, I will change it. If the system doesn't offer what I need, I > will pick a different one. I have worked with all the major ones, be it > Windows, macOS, Linux or FreeBSD, and they all have their ups and downs. I > want mostly the ups, and I anticipate everyone does. > > What I want is a decent desktop experience with no shenanigans, easy > software installation, no animations, no annoying OEM tray icons etc.. That > is what ruled out Windows and macOS for me. So I had FreeBSD and Linux > left. Except FreeBSD isn't FreeBSD and Linux isn't Linux, so we're > comparing pineapples and pomegranates here. > > Now there are multiple graphics systems and desktop stacks to choose from, > the usual X vs Wayland and KDE vs GNOME vs Xfce vs maybe just i3/Sway > choice. I pick i3/Sway because it fits my needs, and that is where that > discussion ends. Coincidentally, they have strong roots in Plan 9, and they > did this one thing: improve a lot. > > We even see ideas making their way back into Plan 9, e.g., with Lola. Tabs? > That is how I use i3/Sway! All windows in full size and tabbed, so that I > can set up a workspace ("desktop") with all I need there. I rarely tile, > and if I do, it will be something like editor + browser or editor + PDF > viewer so I see what my code changes. > So that's the way I roll, and everyone has their own way. And that's okay. > > Now you may know that I've got a decade of experience in web development, a > field that exploded over the years, and I also acknowledge that many of you > simply hate it. Why though? Does user experience design discomfort you? I > do understand that a lot of the development is not perfect, and I also see > how a lot of the web has turned into ad platforms. We can easily agree that > those aspects need improving. So back to the OS. > > Operating systems have made their journeys as well. Be it macOS, Windows or > Ubuntu as they are today having iterated over many concepts in terms of > widgets and interaction design, and BeOS famously having experimented a lot > in the realm of multimedia. The respin Haiku is close to a stable version > 1.0. Let me cite from haiku-os.org: > "Haiku is an open-source operating system that specifically targets > personal computing. Inspired by the BeOS, Haiku is fast, simple to use, > easy to learn and yet very powerful." > > And here goes the idea of "simplicity": It isn't simple nor easy to > *develop* those things, but the primitives are simple. On the other hand, > it is the developers' burden to deliver simplicity to the end user. Let's > keep that in mind: Missing out on a decent user experience creates tons of > complexity on the side of the user. Like, say, having tons of abbreviations > and little use of colors and such in 2025, in which we have 8k screens, > terabytes of storage, gigabytes of RAM, touch input, and tons of gadgets in > everyone's hands - that can change. > > Part2: Where do I want to go with Plan 9? > > The question now is what I am doing here. It's simple (pun intended). > I read that Plan 9 ought to be simple, and I want to see that work out. So > I look at it from a bunch of angles and see that it is quite different from > my expectation of simplicity. Though there is potential to get somewhere. I > think that would fit the spirit of the Bell Labs folks who started it all. > > A lightweight system that can run on those many gadgets we now have? > Awesome, let's do that! I see a ton of potential in being able to, say, > drawterm / cpu into the tablet I hung up in my kitchen. The stock Android > is long defunct. Or the wristband I am wearing. Tiny SBCs that I can plug > into my laptop via USB. The small https://racklet.io/ cluster that I am > helping to build. Whatever wicked still may come! > > So I have been working on hardware platform initialization firmware, this > project called oreboot (yes, without C), and boot loaders, that is, > LinuxBoot, and next, I want to bring up Plan 9. I mainly work on RISC-V > based platforms, now also a bit of Arm, and little x86. > > With the experience in doing this, I paired up with Shawn to hack on > Moody's WIP port of 9front for RISC-V in QEMU. And I checked with Ron and > Ori if we can LinuxBoot into Plan 9 / 9front on x86 (might work again with > Ron's fix; I gotta retry!). > > Over the last few days, I created a tool to convert Plan 9 a.out files to > ELF (amd64 so far, RISC-V WIP), and I added Plan 9 a.out support for RISC-V > to radare2. Those tools should help with the endeavor. > > I would be very happy to see some more support. I can read quite a lot of > code, and I will have questions. Some I can answer myself with more or less > effort, and some which I can only work through with a lot of patience and > help. > > Postlude: > > Anyway, sorry for the very lengthy email. I am not much of an email person > anyway, so please bear with me should you reply and wait for my response. > Thank you! 🧡 > > With all that, have a good day! ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf84d656c78bbda91-M8740a0295220c8c83d434c90 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
