On Jun 25, 11:15 pm, atypican <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>That person is your teacher > >> Others surely can help me learn, but it does not follow that becoming > >> their pupil or disciple is the most desirable way to so benefit. I am > >> not so foolish that I can't take advice from someone with expertise > >> where I don't have it. Depending on what they are supposedly better > >> informed about, it can be quite difficult for me to tell that they > >> are. Say we're talking about spirituality, what is a good way to tell > >> if someone is more “spiritually advanced” than me? > >It's different than you think. Any and all teachers that we have had > >are pieces of what a Teacher, capital T, will do. > > After digesting the rich information you've presented to me about > spiritual teachers, The most obvious thing is how high a regard you > hold your capital T Teacher in. Have you any critical comments to make > about him/her? I would guess not, since s/he's already “there” at some > supposed pinnacle.
Nobody's perfect. Some people are just so far ahead that picking out their faults in an effort to puff up my ego would just be detrimental to my growth. > > I somehow doubt that this Teacher you type about offers more than > pieces...A feeling of completeness. You must be thankful for your > teachers help getting you “there” to fully realized and whole. You > must be a master now. > "Get thee behind me..." > >>> I'm stating that I believe that you have zero concept of what a > >>> spiritual teacher is or can do for you. > >> Frankly I consider the terms "spiritual teacher" or "spiritual > >> education" to be misleading. But since you think I have "zero concept" > >> I will refute that. Spiritual teachers have done at least the > >> following for me, much like a palm reader or that guy from crossing > >> over.... they have presented me with lesson after lesson in theatrics > >> and how to seem amazing to a gullible audience that regards them (I > >> think) too highly and probably themselves too lowly. > > Those aren't Teachers. > > Example setters are my teachers. Even if it's clear that they intended > me to be otherwise informed by their example, I highly value the > lessons I learn even from observing less than admirable behavior. I got it. That's just a separate subject to me. > > >>> That's the challenge. > >> It is definitely a constant challenge to find my next teacher....even > >> old reliable..my most recent mistake... isn't always easiest to > >> adequately identify and learn from. But you are challenging me to > >> accept instruction from someone who is better informed about spiritual > >> matters then me (aren't you?). In our usage of the word “teacher” we > >> are using both a literal (teacher=purveyor of supposedly beneficial > >> instruction)and metaphoric (teacher=anything we learn from) > >> interpretation of the word. > > Yeah, those are pieces. > > Here's a quote from a poet I admire that reflects a very important > truth. If I thought that anything worth knowing could be taught, I > would would set myself up as a teacher and teach it. > > “Say not, 'I have found the truth,' but rather, 'I have found a > truth.” ~ Kahlil Gibran > This feels like an attempt to keep me away from absolutes. Tell me what you meant. The first quote doesn't feel relevant because this is not a piece of information that the Teacher instills. It's a way. > >> If I were to be convinced to seek out the former, how then should I > >> determine that a teacher deserves discipleship? Convincing me to > >> respect them would be easy. Convincing me to treat them like a child > >> does to a parent is another matter altogether. > > A) They don't need you. You need them. > > In order to be a teacher one NEEDS students. A good teacher that can > effectively demonstrate their skills, and holds nothing back, finds > that the curious student is a quick learner and quickly becomes a > teacher/challenger. Helping the teacher to continue learning. So if > the teacher(the good kind)is into continuing their own development > they need students as much as the students need them. This is beside what I was trying to get at. The Teacher doesn't need you to validate themselves like most advice givers do. > > > B) You feel a spiritual attraction to them. They bring out the most > > inspired you. > > From my experiences so far, those that bring out the best in me are > those who admire how I shine in ways they are dim, yet don't commend > everything I say. They feel fit to challenge me and understand that in > some ways they are more well developed than me, and still won't > conclude that they or me are deserving of a higher status... At any plateau, it's always a good idea to inspect what you've "always done." > > “Dignity is a posture we take, projecting neither superiority of > inferiority.” ~atypican > Why are we projecting anything? > > We ignore what we want to ignore. > > I agree. We are all ignorant, just about different things. > That's not what I meant. We willfully blind ourselves. > >>> There have been mystery cults, and masters for millenia. > >> Masters? At what? Or of whom? I have heard rumors of masters. David > >> Copperfield is pretty talented as far as masters of illusion go. I > >> don't want to learn how to more effectively trick people, it's not my > >> bag. > >This is mastery of, once you find it, the most important thing in the > >world. > > And once you think yourself to have found “it” and you regard “it” as > THE most important thing (worship), my thinking is that you will > thereby become less of a seeker. Yep, you're a finder. You have all the tools you acquired as a seeker and all new uses for them. > > >>> They're all teaching the same thing, how to reconnect with the hidden > >>> subconscious, Sophia, the divine. > >> And all but the best of the offered recipe/rituals involve submission > >> to a perceived master. Who are some contemporaries you regard as > >> masters? > > No leads for you. ;-) > > Like the supposed masters, I think your holding an empty hand behind > your back here. Of course I'd love to be proven wrong. > Sorry to disappoint. > >>> There are certain aspects of the mind that can't be self learned by > >>> the ego, ego is only one aspect of mind. That's the heart to heart > >>> thing. > >> What you mean is not clear to me here. Please rephrase. We, or what we think of as ourselves, are ego's. These egos are made up of "mind" but do not encompass the inner world. The ego's strength is, in my experience, in inverse proportion to the connection with the inner psyche. More connection equals less ego. The ego can't control these aspects and darwinianly shields the person from connection to these other inner elements. You could in one instance envision it like an evil king hiding his beautiful daughter away. In the same instance you could picture it as a good king saving his kingdom from an overload of good things that they aren't ready for. The connection and art of living in communion with the inner psyche is the art of expanding out into that inner psyche. Like a computer, we only have so much bandwidth. The game becomes expanding the bandwidth and deleting programs that are running that we don't want or need anymore. The Teacher can see what needs to go and how to increase the bandwidth but explaining every little thing that they are doing is wasteful and detrimental because: A) The Teacher is working from a level that the student isn't at and can't understand. If they understood they wouldn't need a teacher. B) The ego is trying to control the learning process to shore itself up so that it's not damaged in any way. The whole point of the teacher is the assassination of that ego. Piece by piece. Picking at it until the student is ready to die. And then they do and they find that they didn't die at all. It was their ego that died. And it was reborn. Our sense of self is now deeper. More things about and inside of me, I now understand as me. > > And here I'll tell you what a teacher does... > > In delving into the psyche, the mind, the feelings, the intuition, a > > person discovers a whole new world, the inner world. > > It's where our dreams come from, where our emotions take place, where > > our thoughts bounce about. > > All seeking and religion and striving is done to affect and/or find > > balance in this inner world and also the outer, that we share. > > The final destination is balance between both. > > Everybody's who's growing is walking that general direction. > > It sounds like you are saying everyone wants to reach an end of > development. Everyone is striving, but they would prefer to only rest, > content at a final destination. This doesn't describe me. I think > fundamental imbalances are necessary to life itself. My hope is that > some certain specific flow patterns can be totally abandoned and > outgrown. I think it's not about doing away with imbalance but finding > better ways to deal with the necessity of it. > Or inevitability of it. > > They get caught along the way. > > Is there anything all these traps have in common? > They're something you'd rather do than experience any of the things locked inside of you. > > That inner world works differently than > > this outer one. > > It can certainly seem that way, but I am not convinced that it does. > Ok. > > Up is down, left is right, birds are thoughts and > > water is emotion. > > During imaginative play, we all trail off in to nonsense at times :) > I didn't trail anywhere. > > An epiphany is a grasping of a bird(thought) at a higher(or deeper?) > > altitude than a person is used to. > > Epiphanies tend to fade though. > > To say nothing of those that cause people to fancy themselves masters. > For myself I can only say...Too true Oy Vey. > > > What's great is we experienced them and we kinda know that our lives > > would be better at that height(or depth?). > > agreeing > > > That's what drives everyone here, uniformly. We want to be closer to > > the final destination. You might say, life is path, I got it. We just > > instinctively seem to want to "get there". > > The only final destination I can think of is indistinguishable from > death, the inner and outer worlds completely balanced. There are > specific things I am struggling to overcome and achieve, all of which > require better self mastery. Thinking someone to have full self > mastery is the illusion so many haven't been able to “step through” > from what I can tell. Even you said, control is an illusion? > At a certain point it's foolish to think that there aren't humans so much more advanced than it would be a waste of time to pick for their flaws. A good way to think of it is, "My teacher's not perfect but there is more than enough of a distance between us that I will be better off to consider them that way for practical purposes." > > Someone said to me, "A day with a teacher is like 400 years alone." > > I thought it sounded funny until I had one. > > What we come up with independently of others is zilch, so it might as > well be a million years. But I know something of accelerated learning. > Partly because I was fortunate enough to have many teacher/student > relationships where the roles (as traditionally understood) reversed > all the time. Plus the curious can learn in an instant what those who > lack it will never learn. > > Was this master able to help you reach a level of mastery where you > recognized an ability to teach/challenge him/her? In my experience > this happens all the time, and helps me keep my humility. > I dropped out because I was moving faster than I wanted to move and my reticence increased the pain of constantly having my ego killed off. I'm not done being angry. > > I'm determined, stubborn and distrusting...but in a world(the inner) > > where there are many false paths and dead ends and great aids and lost > > friends, it pays to know these masters of the self. > > But do you know them so well that they openly admit what they have not > mastered? Do they regard you as possibly helpful to them or do they > make it clear that they don't NEED lowly people like you? Being > themselves already fully realized and whole. > Well if they're old you could rake their lawn or something. Would I send you to someone that was a dick? ;-) Teachers are to be tested with great intensity and when you make the choice to enter into relationship you should never test them again. It's too dramatic that way. Stay or go is much more simple. > > They can speak to you from those depths. You relearn language and how > > to think. > > Sounds dazzling. > > > You feel safe enough to examine the worst feelings locked away inside. > > You can do that on your own can you not? > In forests plagued by fear, all are helped by the sure guide. > > And the reason these Teachers are different than all others... > > their job is to stand in for God(the final destination). > > So as an example of the farthest you can go in your development.... > Furthest to practically care about. > > Because this "God" thingy(or final destination) is inside you somehow, > > somewhere. > > I have had internal dialog as long as I can remember. I, perhaps > differently than you, also associate a person's growth efforts > finalizing with theism. It'll at least look that way. > > > The keystone to your balance is part of you, the deepest, highest > > part. > > It is unable to be boxed in with logic or blasted away. > > This thing can speak to you in a way. The teacher is the message > > passer. > > They hear what it says because they listen so well to their own. > > They're the guide that is beyond fluent in intuition. > > That's why they're different. They teach a very specific thing, how to > > find yourself. > > While I don't think the method I am promoting for that is fitting for > everyone, I am working to make publicly available a method I am > helping to develop that does not require discipleship. It's not so > much about finding yourself, but playing a more active effortful role > in self development. I don't think effort is always enough. Openness to change in what we think we know is scary. We have to be brave where we have always chosen to ignore. > > > You've obviously already begun the journey. > > Thanks. Please understand that while I take issue with some particular > expressions of yours, in essence I am in agreement with your > approach. > > > I tell you, you are doomed. There is no way you will ever not want to > > wonder. > > Good, right? > > What is it that I am not susceptible to? > Being content. > > Once you find your teacher it will feel like you had never even begun. > > All else will be a chaotic prelude. > > Now you are presuming to know where I am at, and taking up prophecy! > Amen. > > We're crawling with habits and such that basically eliminate our > > ability to exert will and choice. > > They point them out. > > Noticing what they are is not much of a challenge for me. What has > long been tough for me is a sort of paralysis that comes from > recognizing unlimited directions of possibility. > Atyp, if you're plateauing then you definitely are challenged in seeing what habits are holding you back. Your voicing of the state also infers a wish to leave it. It's limiting to say, "I know there's an answer and I don't know it but I know the form in which it will come." Why does that follow? > > You trust them as much as you dare. > > I trust that they have similar limitations. When or if I meet someone > who has apparently overcome what I am trying to overcome I will be > surprised, and attracted to them. > That's everything then. > >>>Trying to control it is the best way to make the reverie go away. > >> So if I try to retrace the steps I took in order to get there in order > >> to get there when I want as opposed to sort of stumbling upon it, is > >> that Trying to control it? > > YES. It sucks. You have to let go of it. > > That's what you think, I will take it into consideration > Consider away. The first time you experienced reverie you weren't wishing for it. Some part of you inside bubbled over. You gotta figure out where and what that heat-switch was. Were you in a good mood or a bad mood? Were you doing anything special? It's tedious. Why not have faith that there are other things to find out there? Searching for it is eating up bandwidth, possibly bandwidth needed to run that reverie program you like. > > You can't worship experiences. > > But I don't see anything wrong with revering them. It may be that I > can't recreate an experience for myself quite as life changing, in the > same way, and I accept that. My improvements are much slower now but I > haven't completely lost hope that I might through diligence experience > the same sort of inspiring thrill again. > Just want in that general direction of inspiring and something will come. What if it doesn't have the form that you wanted? Is that ok? If it's not then you won't have any new experiences either. I'm pretty sure there are a million strange things our mind-body- spirits can do. They don't seem to happen to people who "know" how reality is supposed to work. > > Reverie seems to come upon me when I need it. There are other things > > to do in bed anyway. ;-) > > It brought you joy? Strive for that. > > And joy doesn't vaporize when sought after directly? > To seek joy, project it. Your psyche is reflective. Whatever you project out will be how you perceive the world to be perceiving you. > >>> You can reference all the times where a peer-to-peer relationship > >>> helped you but why aren't you whole and realized yet? > >> I am humble enough to admit that I am a work in progress. I don't > >> claim to have completely mastered or realized myself. If someone knows > >> that they have things yet to learn, would they think themselves fully > >> realized? > > Fully realized people still have things to learn. > > So fully realized people are not fully realized. :) I guess we just have different definitions of fully realized. Everything in the universe is expanding. It's natural for our consciousnesses to expand as well. And kinda unnatural for them not to expand. Growth is normal. > > > “Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; > > chop wood, carry water.” > > Of enlightened “masters”(as I understand them) it can be said: > > “Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment > have a lowly disciple who thinks the world of you do it for you.” "As long as you get me off this plateau, I'll mow your grass and put your numbers into Turbotax," said Atyp to his new teacher. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "A Civil Religious Debate" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/a-civil-religious-debate?hl=en.
