Yeah OK. How do we get assurance that our discernment isn't profoundly flawed in one way or another. If you trust that your discernment is sound, who are you trusting? I submit you are inescapably trusting yourself.
If I, as a human being, were the measure of all things Please rephrase. I struggle to understand the statement. We might measure things according to the standards we accept but humans are not a measure. Except perhaps in the task of counting people. Humankind sets standards. Standards by definition are imperfect and should be adjusted as we learn A healthy recognition of failure is how we humans improve standards. then it seems plain that I would have only myself to trust. A logical conclusion made from a poorly established premise Either humankind is or is not the measure of all things A standard considered perfect or all encompassing is a standard that can't be improved or developed by the considerer. If reality is infinite, there is no measure of all things. perhaps there is One greater than ourselves. Greater as measured by what standard? It comes down, again, to my previous question to you, of whether you believe there is any alternative to mankind being the measure of all things? Yeah mankind is the measure of some things. You alluded to not holding that, but if you don't, then what do you hold? See above Is there any way out of this seeming pickle of trusting ourselves, but wanting to have a higher standard by which we might judge our own capacities Yeah We can understand on a fundamental level how important being able to doubt (and not getting too proud to admit it) is. The majority of professed and vocal atheists practice a form of theism. They can't disguise it from me by simply claiming that they don't believe in god. Expand a little, if you don't mind. What theos do you see most professed and vocal atheists believing in, if only implicitly? At the root it's the same as others but relabeled. They esteem others too highly and themselves too lowly by comparison (or vice versa). They go to other people to learn about what they will feel most comfortable (in their social environment) professing. Ask for critical comments about these people that they go to. They will draw a blank. > the theist delusion is that > they think they have access to an individual that teaches > them perfectly. > > Yes. That individual is called the Holy Spirit. > > I am surprised at what you appear to concede here. > What else could you possibly have expected? I don't know but I didn't expect agreement. Have you ever encountered a Christian before? According to which definition of Christian. Let's put it this way. I am one of the few atheists you'll meet that doesn't have a condemning attitude toward Christianity (or any other sect for that matter). I am not...metaphorically challenged so to speak. :) > Let's say your goal is to place your complete trust in this > individual you > regard as a perfect teacher. > > Well, this is variously to be regarded, depending both on whether > the > individual one is seeking to trust is really God (God the Holy > Spirit) > or merely a human being with some possibly good ideas. Is there any way for me to obtain a power of discernment that I myself would not naturally possess? discernment develops with practice like any other skill. Why should one not trust the Church that Jesus founded? trust it to do what? > I don't think it can be summed up that easily. I am atheist yet I > could easily logically prove the existence of god. > Then how can you be atheist? Because I don't know anyone all powerful, or if I do, I don't know that they are. If I did believe that there was an all powerful being I would wonder why so many horrendous things occur. Does "could easily" mean you have done it? Yeah though I'm sure I wouldn't be introducing you to anything new here. : ) And if so, why do you not believe your own proof? It's the only theological statement I have accepted so far. I am as sure as I can be that god exists as a term. Do you think that a proof of something does not imply the truth of what is proven?? It implies it but does not absolutely guarantee it. on to see if I can keep up... It boils down to trusting. And can (or should) we trust another individual more than ourselves. I would say in a sense yes we can trust another *more*. But the decision to trust is ours alone.
