John Chambers wrote:

>Atte wrote:
>| On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, John Chambers wrote:
>| > Atte wrote:
>| > | >> !fine! exclamation-point abuse
>| >
>| > This reminds me:  There has been a bit of discussion of  this  syntax
>| > off  and  on over the years.  Some people have implemented it.  Could
>| > people post information on which abc apps accept this syntax?
>|
>| abcm2ps
>
>That's the only reply that I've seen.  Is this the only  abc  program
>that  understands  the  !foo! annotation syntax?  (Well, actually, my
>jcabc2ps clone does, too, so that's two abc2ps clones. Not what you'd
>call an overwhelmingly positive response.)

You can probably add jaabc2ps too, since that whole !foo! mess was
JA's idea.

>If so, I'm disappointed.  I sorta  recall  that  there  was  quite  a
>discussion  of  this on several occasions, and a lot of people seemed
>to think it was a Good Idea.  Some recent messages implied that  some
>people  thought  the  issue had been settled and this syntax adopted.
>But the shortage of replies to my question imply that this isn't true
>at all.

This person has always thought it a very bad idea.  I've argued against
it at great length on many occasions.  In fact, it's the main barrier
to general acceptance of the draft 1.7 standard;  take that out and
I'll vote for acceptance of the rest of it.  Needless to say, BarFly
doesn't support it.

>Of course, it did also get mixed up with the concept of macros, since
>a  lot  of  people  prefer 1-char abbreviations for such things.  And
>macros turn out to  be  so  complex  that  most  people  give  up  in
>bewilderment  after  reading  a few messages on the subject.  I don't
>think I'd want to try to implement any of  the  things  I  read;  I'm
>certain I'd do it wrong.

It is inextricably mixed up with macros, because that's the way that
the idea was framed.

>But the !foo! notation itself seems simple.  And a header  line  that
>says  something  like  m:q=!foo!  seems  like  it would be trivial to
>implement.  I wonder if it would be possible to get general agreement
>on  something  simple like this, and leave parameterized macros for a
>future discussion.

Sure.  Just leave out the bangs - they are utterly unnecessary.

>(Of course, if past history is any clue, what will happen is  that  a
>few  people will declare that macros that just do string substitution
>are not nearly powerful enough to solve all the world's problems, and
>another discussion of obscure macro implementations will follow, with
>the result that everyone else will killfile the topic and the idea of
>a basic substitution macros will once again die on the vine.  ;-)

Basic substitution macros are very useful, they don't stop you from going
on to deal with macros which know to transpose (which are even more
useful).

Phil Taylor


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