It is so nice to know that you are aware of these issues. Over the years, I have learned to resign myself to settle for such suboptimal solutions as the ones I described in my posting and put the best face on it that I could. If Libre Office could be made accessible out of the box for all screen readers regardless of the platform, it would be a truly fantastic thing!
Regards, Alex M On 1/3/11, Christophe Strobbe <[email protected]> wrote: > > At 03:15 8/12/2010, Alex Midence wrote: >>Thing is, some apps that can only be navigated with the Jaws cursor >>can be scripted such that they become accessible. If the Jaws cursor >>can see it, the invisible cursor can too, usually. I managed to make >>some progress wtih Open Office this way. > > This is great to hear, even though it is not the best solution. There > are several reasons for this: > * scripts can break when the user interface changes, > * JAWS scripts are specific to JAWS and don't help users of other > screen readers, > * scripts are not part of the standard download of > OpenOffice/LibreOffice, not are they downloadable from > http://www.openoffice.org/ or http://www.documentfoundation.org/ so > users need to actively search for them [1]. > > > >>Some of the controls I could >>only access with the jaws cursor might be made accessible through >>hotkeys set to change from pc to invisible and then back to pc again >>at the click of a key. In the end, what may happen is that Libre >>Office is made to be scriptably accessible which is ok, I guess >>though out of the box accessibility would be nice. > > In my opinion, built-in accessibility is not just "nice", it should > be the default. > > > [1] Moreover: "Freedom Scientific does not typically accept > unsolicited offers of scripts for third party applications." > <http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_support/BulletinView.asp?QC=792>. > JAWS users are referred to sites such as <http://www.JFWlite.com/> > and <http://www.BlindProgramming.com/>. > > Best regards, > > Christophe Strobbe > > > >>Alex M >> >> >>On 12/7/10, Octavian Rasnita <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Well, if an interface is accessible only by using the JAWS cursor, we >> > can >> > say that it is really inaccessible, because it is not an application >> > that >> > can be currently used. >> > The edit fields where we should type strings are not accessible and the >> > other controls are very hard to find with the JAWS cursor... >> > >> > Octavian >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Alex Midence" <[email protected]> >> > To: <[email protected]> >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 5:37 PM >> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Laws and standards >> > >> > >> > SWT is indeed more accessible. I think the only parts of Libre >> > Office that are in Java are those tied to the database. Most of the >> > code is in c and c++, I heard. Btw, QT is somewhat supported. I >> > wouldn't call it stellar but it's not impossible to navigate witha >> > jaws cursor. (Mouse simulator) Idle, for instance, is in QT. I dn't >> > see them rewriting the code to use swt classes though. Besides, I >> > think this creates issues in Gnome since swt is less accessible there >> > than swing. >> > >> > alex M >> > >> > On 12/7/10, Octavian Rasnita <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: "Christophe Strobbe" <[email protected]> >> >>> Hi Alex, >> >>> >> >>> At 02:25 7/12/2010, Alex Midence wrote: >> >>>>Well, my thinking is and always will be that Libre Office is better >> >>>>off making itself accessible no matter what screen reader is used. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> That is why LibreOffice (like OpenOffice.org) needs to support >> >>> accessibility APIs, keyboard access, desktop themes, etcetera. For a >> >>> screen reader to work with an application, the application needs to >> >>> implement the accessibility API (for example the Java Accessibility >> >>> API, which is not tied to a specific operating system), and the >> >>> screen reader needs to support that API. As far as I know, screen >> >>> readers on Windows have generally weak support for the Java >> >>> Accessibility >> >>> API. >> >> >> >> >> >> True, although the screen readers for Windows have a weak support for >> >> SWING >> >> API. The support for SWT is much better. >> >> >> >> But the screen readers for Windows have a non-existent support for >> >> other >> >> GUIs like Tk, GTK, QT... >> >> >> >> >> >>> (Note: Java accessibility on Windows requires the Java Access Bridge. >> >>> Oracle is working on a new version of this bridge that will be part >> >>> of the Java Runtime Environment instead of a separate download.) >> >> >> >> This will be great, but hopefully the screen readers manufacturers will >> >> also >> >> offer a better support for SWING. >> >> >> >> JAWS for Windows offer some support for Java Access Bridge as it is >> >> now, >> >> but >> >> only in a virtual buffer, so the apps are seen like web pages. >> >> >> >> SWING is slower than SWT anyway, and that weak support offered by JAWS >> >> makes >> >> the apps much less responsive, but what's the most important for blind >> >> programmers is that it is very hard if impossible to make the design of >> >> the >> >> GUI, because in the SWING apps, JAWS doesn't offer that "JAWS cursor" >> >> for >> >> allowing us to "see" the position of each window control on the screen. >> >> >> >> I heard that Window Eyes started to offer a better support for SWING >> >> than >> >> JAWS but I haven't tested it. >> >> >> >> By the way, what interface is LibreOffice using? I've tested OpenOffice >> >> and >> >> it was pretty accessible although I don't remember if I had Java Access >> >> Bridge installed. Does it use something else than SWING? >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> Octavian >> >> > > -- > Christophe Strobbe > K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD > Research Group on Document Architectures > Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442 > B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee > BELGIUM > tel: +32 16 32 85 51 > http://www.docarch.be/ > Twitter: @RabelaisA11y > --- > "Better products and services through end-user empowerment" > www.usem-net.eu - www.stand4all.eu > --- > Please don't invite me to Facebook, Quechup or other "social > networks". You may have agreed to their "privacy policy", but I haven't. > > > -- > E-mail to [email protected] for instructions on how to > unsubscribe > List archives are available at > http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/accessibility/ > All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- E-mail to [email protected] for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/accessibility/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
