Srikanth and Kartik, I second Srinivasu's second mail that you are certainly not wasting any time. In fact, this is one of the most fruitful discussions on the list.
I'm somewhat busy with personal assignments, hence will write briefly. No conclusions, only analysis. 1. Writing exam on the computer Very few visually challenged people have access to the computer with screen reader in India. So, can't expect every one to do it. 2. Own scribe Very helpful for genuine candidates. At the same time, very easy to cheat the examination body if candidate is not genuine, especially with the present guidelines. 3. Scribe provided by examination body Okay if scribe is good. Hell if otherwise. Spelling every word to the scribe is impossible. As far as selective words are concerned, you won't know which words are misspelt by the scribe. 4. Strengthening invigilation Ideal solution. But invigilators are also human. Blind people will easily make them sympathise with them. This may hurt some. But can not rule out the reality. What is the solution? On 11/19/13, raaju <bidh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Some how I also agree with bala sir, doing exam on the computer give any vi > students independent. > -----Original Message----- > From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf > Of Srikanth Bolla > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:32 PM > To: 'Asudani, Rajesh'; 'AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility > andissues concerning the disabled.' > Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in > JEEMain guidelines > > HI, > We did not mean we need own scribe for science subjects. I made a > comparison saying that for non-science subjects, there is no need for own > scribe. Of course, you may request scribe from the center with same > background but even that same background is not needed to write eats or any > other words. If you think the scribe is making mistake, you are supposed to > spell the words. In fact, it's not scribes duty to write correct spellings. > Scribe has all rights to ask you to spell anything that is not clear. So > this is why, we should all promote the use of computers to take exams. Or > we > can use recorders to record answers. I hope this will help you understand. > But I am again reiterating that requesting own scribe in many case is just > to escape and pass out. Regards, -----Original Message----- > From: Asudani, Rajesh [mailto:rajeshasud...@rbi.org.in ] Sent: Tuesday, > November 19, 2013 1:37 AM > To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com; AccessIndia: a list for discussing > accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. > Subject: RE: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in JEE > Main guidelines > > Well, not writing a detailed reply but why do you need own scribe if the > exam is non-scince subjects, literature based? > Please think twice. > A scribe always wrote Yeast, when I said, Yeats.... > I think this suffices to explain my point. > So, science is not the only subject requiring your own scribe. > Wavelength matters and no authority can impose scribe on us, more often > than > not, they impose utterly inefficient scribes. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf > Of Srikanth Bolla > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 9:53 AM > To: 'Kartik Sawhney' > Cc: 'AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning > the disabled.' > Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in JEE > Main guidelines > > Dear Karthik, > I am thrilled to get your detailed perspective on this problem. I hope > we both are not the only once writing back and forth and maybe wasting time > on this subject. Nice to know that CBSC gave their own computer and > invigilation. Sorry they did over in your case. Maybe this might be the > first time so it's just due to lack of awareness. Let me point out your > concern "that no talented student should miss out the opportunity due to > lack of accommodations" > I am also 100% with you on this. Personally, I lost so much due to lack of > proper accommodations in science subjects. Even I don't want any talented > student to get hindered by the discriminatory procedures, however, I > strictly don't want any unqualified student to pass out the exams with the > help from scribes. Talented students struggling are rare but unqualified > and unskilled people getting 100's are seen in high percentage. Of course > people on this list might debate on this point but once own consciousness > will tell the truth. Personally, I know unqualified people passing out with > more than 80%. Don't you think this is bad? I 100% agree with your point of > recording the entire session and allow own scribe. Then since there will > be > video and audio, student and the scribe will have very less chance to > cheat. > Recording the session also can bring out valid questions or concerns from > both parties. Then concern authorities can review and make necessary > accommodations in the education curriculum or in the examination system. I > know all this will not happen overnight but before we ask for own scribe, > we > have to bring out these points. Everyone should be aware that bringing own > scribe means carrying extra responsibilities. Some of the specific > questions > we are talking are more for science students. But in India for everything > people are requesting own scribes. For example, do you think bank exams or > IAS or other groups or teacher entrance involve any scientific notations? I > don't think so. If I am wrong, people can correct me. If the exam is > mainly literature based, then why do you need your own scribe? Same with > other non-science subjects. For nonscience subjects, you don't even need > scribe from the same background but I can take that easy. But I completely > oppose the idea of own scribe. Getting own scribe is simply an excuse to > pass without working for it. Mainly, assistive technology should be > permitted rather than own scribe. I don't think explaining about the > diagram or the molecular model is the duty of the scribe. Again, scribe's > duty is to read the question as given on the test paper and record answers > and take down scratch work as you say. So to overcome this problem, tactile > diagrams should be provided. Do you know we have pressure sensitive plastic > paper and the rubber boards? The tool is called draftsman tactile board. > This is wonderful to draw images on the spot. Each student should be given > or allowed to carry these kinds of boards to the exam. Then the scribe can > draw the diagram given on the test paper instantly and lead you to feel the > diagram but not explain in his own words. This will avoid the images > problem. Asking alternative questions for diagrams is also kind of an > excuse > in my view. I do understand the miss interpretations of terminology. That > is why we are requesting the scribe from the same background. Scribe can > be bit higher level than you but the scribe should not be known to the > student. Another problem is that scribe's slow writing and time > constraint. > So I strongly recommend that double time should be given for each exam. To > overcome miss communication or terminology errors, center should arrange > proctor who will oversee the exam. That Procter should be from the > concerned > subject. Then if the scribe has any questions. they can refer to the > proctor. Finally, I don't understand officials view. They said providing a > tactile graphics is a security concern but don't they think allowing own > scribe is even worse? Thank you. > Regards, > > ---Original Message----- > From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, > November 18, 2013 10:44 PM > To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com > Cc: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning > the disabled. > Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in JEE > Main guidelines > > Hi Srikanth, > > CBSE provided their own computer during the Board examinations alongwith > two > invigilators-they kind of overdid it in my view, but it is okay. > > As far as the problem with the exam centre providing their own scribe goes, > I will quote a personal experience. When I took the National level Science > Talent Search Examination back in 2011, I was given a scribe from class X. > When it came to describing diagrams as no tactile diagrams were provided, > he > tried his level best, but was unable to explain most of the diagrams. > Similarly, a question involved working with finding the hybridization of > various carbon atoms. That was perhaps the simplest question on the test, > but I lost points because he could not convey the structure to me. We've > got > to agree that some people are good at describing stuff, while the others > are > not. It shouldn't be the fault of the candidate if the scribe is not a good > describer, right? > > Also, working together for six hours is not something that easy. My > instructions should be understood by the scribe as quickly as possible, as > any delay is my loss. What if a thing as simple as "read the element a2,2" > may be misinterpreted by the scribe? You don't have time during the test to > explain him how the matrix terminology works. > Or, consider e-z stereo isomers. Sometimes, it becomes important to use > appropriate terminology to convey things, otherwise it might become > difficult to complete the exam within the stipulated time. > > Of course, situation in the United States is pretty different. All the > testing agencies provide you verbal descriptions and tactile graphics, > while > also allowing assistive technology, thus eliminating the need of having a > scribe of your own choice. If assistive technology is permited, then for > sure, the choice of bringing in your own scribe is an unreasonable one. > However, until that happens, it is immportant that this choice be > available. > > Another pragmatic alternative could be creation of a pool of scribes, so > that if one does not work, the other could be tried. This, again, looks > hard > to implement in the near future (authorities manage to get one scribe after > so much difficulty that a pool seems out of question). > > At the same time, I don't understand the reservations in strengthening > invigilation and allowing any scribe. Why not record the entire test > session > and review it (as happens at MIT)? Why not seat the scribe and the > candidate > in such a way that no communication can go unnoticed (this happened with me > once)? If this cannot be done, either because of callousness on the part of > the invigilator or because of some other reason, then I am sorry to say > that > the entire concept of invigilation is flawed. The only thing that I am > stressing is that I wouldn't want a single genuinely talented student to > lose out because of any arbitrary norms or lack of appropriate > accommodations. A test is a platform to showcase your abilities; I wouldn't > want anything to be a hindrance for a blind student. > > Another interesting point worth taking into account: allowing assistive > technology may not be as simple as one may think. IITs submitted that they > were trying to get tactile graphics ready for JEE Advanced 2013 in August > 2012. They continued to maintain the same stand even in April 2013. > Finally, > they submitted that it will be hard to implement owing to security > considerations. > > > > On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Dear Karthik, >> I am not here to test the remembering abilities of blind people. >> Even I cannot remember multiple math steps in my mind. For that >> matter, I will trouble my scribe to read again and again when it comes >> to long messy equations. I am sorry. Maybe I was not clear enough. Yes >> you are absolutely right. Scribe can track your intermediary steps and >> read them back to you any number of times but the scribe is not >> supposed to perform calculations on your behalf unless you tell >> specifics. In my view, scribe should not perform simple math >> calculation you quoted as that can be done by a blind person in the >> presence of a tailor frame. I do understand that IIT or other exams >> may not test you long calculations but if they do, there is a reason >> and every student is expected to perform those calculations on own. So >> I am not sure whether I agree with your statement which says that thee >> simple and >> long calculations can be done by the scribe. So I feel organizations >> should work with the examination boards to allow assistive technology >> with high security measures. Then wherever sited students are doing >> scratch work or small calculations, blind person can do them on the >> assistive technology. >> For example you might tell him to write down 1/2*5/7 but you may not >> tell him the final answer so the scribe should be able to ask you >> for the answer and not imply just because he or she worked with you > previously. >> Of course where ever there is opportunity for scratch work, then blind >> students should be given to take tailor frame or computer with imposed >> restrictions. I know we are talking about specifics but let's come >> back to the big picture. I quoted number of problems of having an own >> scribe. So can you please site reasons for requesting own scribe if >> the examination center can provide scribe from the same subject >> background and can facilitate one hour previous interaction before the >> exam? You are a great man Karthik. You are an inspiration for real >> hard working blind people in India. I am amazed by your use of >> computer from the first standard. People like you should strive to >> convince examination boards to allow assistive technology or >> accessible tactile tools so that they can create fare experience for >> blind student. Finally, own scribe is a bad idea according to me. By >> the way, can you please explain how you were able to use computer? For >> example, did you go through any security checks before the exam or did >> they give you the computer? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 4:53 PM >> To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com >> Cc: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues >> concerning the disabled. >> Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in >> JEE Main guidelines >> >> Hi Srikanth, >> >> I may point out that the sighted students have the privilege of using >> a scratch paper for Mathematical computations. These exams do not just >> involve an OMR sheet, but provide you a lot of space for rough work >> throughout the test booklet. If sighted are allowed to perform scratch >> work, then there should not be a problem to have blind students do the >> same. Personally, I cannot keep track of a 4×4 matrix, its transpose, >> cofactor matrix and then the inverse in my mind (and so cannot the >> brightest student in my class). I need someone to keep record of these >> for me, especially since I have no tools or assistive technology. When >> a sighted studet is not expected to keep track of these values, then >> why should a blind student be expected to do so? >> Also, your definition of scribe is rather narrow. If you look up the >> definition of scribe (the ETS version which is followed for the >> conduct of the SAT test), you will realize that it permits scratch >> work in the absence of other tools. >> >> Also, realize that there is a difference in rephrasing a question, >> solving a question and keeping track of the intermediate steps. the >> first two are absolutely unacceptable, but the last should be >> absolutely fine. Further, we need to be very clear about the objective >> of the test in question. The IIT-JEE does not seek to measure your >> proficiency at calculations (6th grade exams are good for that); it >> seeks to measure your conceptual ability. >> Having someone calculate >> 4×6.022×10^23/6.626×10^-34×3×10^8 in the absence of taylor frame or >> spreadsheet application is fine in my view. However, the scribe >> plugging in those values without the candidate asking him to do so may >> be construed as unfair. >> >> Of course, the ideal mode will be to have the exam in Braille, E-text >> or audio (fortunately, that's slowly happening; I took my Board exams >> using a computer without a scribe). >> >> Best, >> -- >> -Kartik Sawhney, >> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 >> >> >> >> >> On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Dear Karthik, >>> I agree with you in terms of working out math or chemistry questions. >>> But please remember, scribes duty is to verbatim read the question >>> and >> take >>> down the answer as you say but not imply in his own words. He is >>> also >> not >>> supposed to reread the question in simple words or explain you the >>> situation in his or her own words. Do you know? We make mistakes just >>> because we don't understand the way the question is formatted >>> though we know the concept and the correct answer. This happens >>> mainly in the coding. Implications >> can >>> be in many ways. Even if I give him wrong final value but the >>> process is correct, do you suggest that he should fix my final value >>> by > implying? >>> Sited >>> students will calculate the answer and mark on the answer sheet >>> without scratch paper, so why not us in the mind? We can give the >>> scribe final answer. If you tell the scribe to do the problem, he may >>> make math error >> or >>> if you have to calculate that problem, you might make simple math >>> error which might get you wrong answer. Take your example, >>> calculating the inverse of a 3/3 or above, the process is extremely >>> simple but we end up making math errors due to lot of numbers. So >>> this is something scribe cannot do for us. So indirectly, we are >>> asking the scribe to solve a problem for us which is not fare. Since >>> he worked with us before does not mean that he should imply that you >>> know the answer and write. In nervousness and under time constraint, >>> we end up making silly mistakes though we know the >> correct >>> answer. So why scribe should fix those mistakes? When sited students >>> don't have this competitive advantage of working with a person who >>> knows the answers, then why us? If you give me this privilege, I can >>> go and crack >>> IIT-JE or gate or cat, or CA or IAS or ICW or any exam you can think >>> of >>> without any problem. I have people who went through these exams and >>> did >> not >>> clear or cleared. Since they know how to work on these exams, I can >>> maybe hit top rank or at least clear without much of my talent. Do >>> you think this is not possible? We are talking about being fare but >>> how many people will use this opportunity fairly? If people are >>> already using these kind of opportunities well, then why problems of >>> getting job or competing with >> main >>> stream society? I know many people who did not even go to college >>> for >> one >>> days but got 90%. Do you think this is possible? I do however; >>> understand that the visual part is bad for us. for example, when I >>> took SAT, globe detective agency administered the test. They sat with >>> us for the entire duration of the test looking for the similarities >>> of my answers and scribe's pen marks. So at least there should be >>> someone proctoring the exam when >> own >>> scribe is given or it should be videotaped to ensure fare exam. >>> people can find 100 ways to miss use the opportunity. So before we >>> make guidelines, >> we >>> have to consider all possibilities. I just would like to remind that >>> finding the invers of a matrix might be tricky for a blind person but >>> it would be really easy since the sited student can see the numbers. >>> I also propose that the question paper should be given in brail audio >>> or in print. Then the students can choose to opt his or her >>> preference. Then he or she should be able to record answers in to >>> blank audio recorder. This way, he or she >> can >>> walk through the entire process so that the valuators can consider >>> even >> if >>> the final answer is wrong. When we are talking about competitive >>> exams like IIT, CA and CAT, most questions other than maybe few >>> sections are multiple choice. So a student can be given a scribe for >>> scribing the essay or writing part and remaining questions, the >>> student has to answer. As I mentioned above, the definition of the >>> scribe is to read questions >> verbatim >>> as on the test paper. he or she is not supposed to explain. So when >>> test paper is read by an experienced person in to audio tape or >>> record, then that will be equal to a science or subject oriented >>> scribe. If we don't make strict but fare accommodations, then people >>> will continue to miss use. >>> For >>> example, as I mentioned, at MIT, I will not even know who the scribe >>> is till I enter the room. then we have to turn the video recorder on >>> before we begin the exam. we are not supposed to talk each other >>> about test questions. Of course this is bit harsh but I believe this >>> is fare. >> Regards, >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 3:35 PM >>> To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com; AccessIndia: a list for discussing >>> accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. >>> Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes >>> in JEE Main guidelines >>> >>> Hi Srikanth, >>> >>> While I agree with you for most part, I strongly feel that in >>> competitive exams like IIT-JEE and other entrance exams where speed >>> is utmost important, it's important that you've worked with the >>> scribe for quite sometime in advance. consider this: you are not >>> allowed the use of any assistive technology for scratch work, and >>> you're trying to solve a question in linear algebra (say calculating >>> the inverse of a matrix), it'll take a very long time explaining the >>> scribe how the inverse is to be calculated. Instead, you would >>> probably want to walk him through the process real quick, and since >>> he's already worked with you on a similar problem, he can understand >>> what you imply. Or, maybe, consider a question involving optical >>> isomerism in Organic Chemistry, you would probably want the >>> configuration to be described in a particular non-ambiguous way, >>> rather than wasting your time trying to figure out how you want your >>> scribe to explain that to you. To curve >> unfair >>> means, it is invigilation which needs to be strengthened. Isn't that >>> done to curve the use of unfair means for sighted students? Then, why >>> not for us? >>> >>> I'm aware of the situation that you've described, and it is indeed >>> deplorable. However, making such norms that inhibit genuine talent at >>> the cost of trying to ensure a fair exam is not, in my view, the best >>> way to >> go >>> forward. Either we need to allow assistive technology to enable the >>> blind student to take the test independently and just rely on the >>> scribe to bubble the responses, or we need to provide the candidate >>> with a comfortable atmosphere with strong invigilation. BTW, I, too, >>> am totally against segregating blind students for the purposes of >>> taking exams. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Don't worry. I have your number now >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On >>>> Behalf Of Kartik Sawhney >>>> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 2:34 PM >>>> To: accessindia >>>> Subject: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in >>>> JEE Main guidelines >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> It gives me immense pleasure to share with you that CBSE has amended >>>> its rule for Joint Entrance Examination (main), the entrance >>>> examination for most of the tech schools in the country (also a >>>> qualifying exam for the IITs). Until last year, the Board allowed a >>>> non-Science scribe (from Commerce (without Mathematics) or >>>> Humanities) stream, and that too from class XI (two years junior to >>>> the candidate). this had several issues, most notably that the >>>> scribe will not be familiar with the technical symbols on the test, >>>> and hence will not >>> be able to convey those to the candidate. >>>> >>>> According to the information brochure for JEE Main 2014, there is no >>>> eligibility criteria for a scribe. Moreover, the candidate can opt >>>> to bring his/her own scribe. In case the candidate opts to use a >>>> scribe provided by the centre superintendent of the test centre, the >>>> superintendent needs to ensure that both the scribe and the >>>> candidate meet at least an hour before the examination to get >>>> comfortable with each >>> other. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, nothing has been done to make the diagrams on the >>>> test accessible. Further, JEE Advanced (the entrance exam for IITs), >>>> allows a Science student as a scribe, but from class XI. It also >>>> does not allow the candidate to brin his/her own scribe. Despite all >>>> of this, I feel we are close. I would urge the organisations working >>>> for the blind to take this forward, and help future Science >>>> aspirants get the benefits of the elite education imparted at these > institutes. >>>> >>>> The information brochures for both the exams are located on their >>>> respective websites at http://jeemain.nic.in and >>>> http://jeeadv.iitd.ac.in. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> -Kartik Sawhney, >>>> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >>>> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >>>> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >>>> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 >>>> >>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>> accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_a >>>> cc >>>> essind >>>> ia.org.in >>>> >>>> >>>> Search for old postings at: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>> >>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other >>>> changes, please visit the list home page at >>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.o >>>> rg >>>> .in >>>> >>>> >>>> Disclaimer: >>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the >>>> thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates >>>> itself to its veracity; >>>> >>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>> mails sent through this mailing list.. >>>> >>>> >>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>> accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_a >>>> cc >>>> essindia.org.in >>>> >>>> >>>> Search for old postings at: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>> >>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other >>>> changes, please visit the list home page at >>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.o >>>> rg >>>> .in >>>> >>>> >>>> Disclaimer: >>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the >>>> thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates >>>> itself to its veracity; >>>> >>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>> mails sent through this mailing list.. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -Kartik Sawhney, >>> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >>> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >>> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >>> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > -Kartik Sawhney, > Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 > E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); > karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) > Skype: kartik.sawhney22 > > > Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of > mobile phones / Tabs on: > http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessind > ia.org.in > > > Search for old postings at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to > accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in > with the subject unsubscribe. > > To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, > please > visit the list home page at > http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in > > > Disclaimer: > 1. 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Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails sent through this mailing list..
