I think it was very nice of Dave to point out another angle.  I still
disagree with the cost/benefit ratio from a business perspective.  But
I have to admit the purist in me wants this to be reliable and
therefore to have been engineered to handle quite a few what-if
scenarios.  When I do designs for larger-density servers, I certainly
do take a lot more into account.  But at the 20 user level, it's not
normally a performance or reliability issue, but often a cost of entry
issue. That changes as density goes up.

My experience with SATA drives has been that you still, at this time
in their lifecycle, get what you pay for. The MTBF is (on some) rated
to higher than on some SCSI equivalents. Makes for a tougher call
because they're improving SATA's all the time.  Might be worth the
risk of a newer technology here IMHO but it would be good to present
the options for the customer to make the call.

Al

On 5/8/06, Dan DeStefano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I understand what you are saying and, in a perfect world, I would always 
recommend mirrored/duplexed arrays to hold at least the exchange log files. 
However, most of my clients are small businesses with which money is more of an 
object than performance. And at $300+ per SCSI disk, it is difficult to justify 
having 2 or more disks that aren't used to store data.

All that being said, I will discuss this with the people in my organization as 
I do not like using RAID5 especially where Exchange is concerned.

Does anyone have any experience with using SATA II drives in applications as I 
have described? With their new NCQ and 3Gb/s features, combined with their 
cost/GB, they make an attractive alternative to SCSI for small businesses.


Dan


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Wade
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: OT [ActiveDir] Optimize Exchange Pagefile

Al,

 I still think that interesting (i.e. BAD) things might happen if the RAID-5 
ever flips into degraded mode(i.e. runs on two drives.) The first proper 
Exchange Server I built (yes it was 5.0 RTM) was designed for a similar 
situation. We were a small business without about 20 people and the server was 
a Dual Pentium Pro (I guess with NT4) with a third party raid card (I can't 
remember the make). Any way I built it the same way as Dan proposes, and it ran 
fine for a while. However we had some issues with temperature control in the 
server room and we lost a drive from the array. These days I would have taken 
the server off line and allowed the re-build to complete. I didn't and the RAID 
card could just not cope with re-building the array and the minimal load we 
placed on it. To cut a long story short I spent a long time sorting out the 
mess it made of the databases .....

Since then I have been very wary of such configs. In " theory" they should 
work. In my experience, and yes it was a long time ago, and hardware should have 
improved, it may not.

Dave.



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Mulnick
Sent: 05 May 2006 19:06
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Optimize Exchange Pagefile

yeah, there would be some general disagreement from me.  Why? Only because this 
is SBS box vs. an enterprise Exchange server hosting 5K users.

My laptop (crud that it is) could host 20 heavy exchange users with usable/good 
performance with that amount of memory.  I don't think the focus of a machine that 
will only ever have <75 users should be optimized for more than space in most 
situations.  It would be a waste of money that could be spent on other things like 
better backups, better coffee, etc.

I don't believe there's any value in buying a system such as SBS and then 
having to make adjustments to things like pagefile size.  That's counter to the 
product's reason for being.

Saying that, Dave is correct that optimizing the disk layout has the biggest benefit, but 
it's SBS and as such it's "special".  Just ask SBS-Lady ;)

Al

On 5/4/06, Dave Wade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you have 4gig of RAM then you should get minimal paging. (I know
> this is a great generalization)
>
> 1) Log file access is sequential, database is random
> 2) Keeping Log files write queue down is key to performance
> 3) log files are write only
> 4) raid-5 tends to have poor write performance (again greate generalization).
>
> So I would try and get another drive in the box so I could have a mirrored pair 
for OS & LOGS, and a mirrored pair for Databases. . Putting these on seperate 
drives will do far more for performance than changing the page file. RAID-5 is a real 
bad performer on write. These days I woudl avoid as far as possible...
>
> I am sure other folks may disagree...
>
>        -----Original Message-----
>        From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Dan DeStefano
>        Sent: Thu 04/05/2006 21:36
>        To: [email protected]
>        Cc:
>        Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Optimize Exchange Pagefile
>
>
>
>        Yes, far less than 100, on this box it is under 20.
>
>        You do not think it is necessary to mess with the page file, even if 
only to make it static?
>
>
>
>
>
>        Dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  _____
>
>
>        From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave 
Wade
>        Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 4:06 PM
>        To: [email protected]
>        Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Optimize Exchange Pagefile
>
>
>
>        There is no point in messing about with memory config if you only have 
a three drive RAID 5 array. Disk config is critical. How many users do you want to 
put on this box. less than 100?
>
>
>
>
>
>        -----Original Message-----
>        From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Dan DeStefano
>        Sent: Thu 04/05/2006 20:16
>        To: [email protected]
>        Cc:
>        Subject: [ActiveDir] Optimize Exchange Pagefile
>
>                I was wondering if anyone can point me to any MS document that 
discusses optimizing the page file on an Exchange box. I found 
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/815372, but this article does not discuss the page 
file. I am running SBS 2003 on a 3 GHZ Xeon with 4GB physical memory and a 3-disk 
RAID5 array with 2 logical drives. I plan on installing the Exchange binaries on 
the first logical drive (which will also contain the system and boot partitions) 
and the Exchange databases, logs, queues, etc on the second logical drive.
>
>
>
>                The way I normally set the pagefile on my systems is to set it 
to be static and 1.5x physical RAM. I also create a pagefile on each disk and let 
Windows choose the best one (which will be the second logical drive). I do not 
want to disable the pagefile on C: because, from what I understand, this will 
disable crash dumps, which I do not want. However, I set the crash dump to kernel 
only, not the entire pagefile. That being said, would it be appropriate to set the 
pagefile on C: to something small like 256MB since the OS will be using the one on 
the second drive anyway?
>
>
>
>                Also, other than not using the /3GB switch, are there any 
other differences between the memory/pagefile settings on a regular Exchange box 
running WS2k3 and the SBS2k3 version?
>
>
>
>                I would appreciate any guidance.
>
>
>
>
>
>                Dan DeStefano
>
>                Info-lution Corporation
>
>                www.info-lution.com
>
>                MCSE - 2073750
>
>
>
>
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