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Today's Topics:
1. Re: countryside democracy (Candi Gould)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:42:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Candi Gould <[email protected]>
To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] countryside democracy
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi
I think that David Bangs is a Leveller which can be found in Wikipedia.
Candi
________________________________
From: S J Patton <[email protected]>
To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Adastra] countryside democracy
Yawn.
I feel this thread has moved away from having any relevance to this group
and is more about extreme political views.
Time to put it to bed methinks......
Sarah
________________________________
From: david bangs <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2012, 11:49
Subject: Re: [Adastra] countryside democracy
Kay airs several of the standard arguments made in defence of our
capitalist countryside.
She tells us that wildlife-rich landscapes with 'ancient hedgerows' and
'old meadows' were created by 'capitalist landowners'.
In fact, open habitats, such as heath and the various grasslands, pre-date
both capitalism and feudalism, and probably any form of class society.
Adastra folk will already be familiar with the fierce debates around the
'Vera hypothesis' which cover all that ground.
The dominant class in any class society always seeks to present its modus
operandi as a universal constant...the way history always has been, and
the only way we can live...
Kay tells us that farmers and landowners were largely innocents in terms
of responsibility for the massive post-war destruction of nature and
historic landscape features...driven by an overbearing 'agricultural
policy' and a notion of
'patriotic duty'. Yet it was the farmers and landowners organisations and
political pressure which drove on those policies, in a cold war climate
which had as much to do with competition with the Stalinist block, and an
imperialist take-over of poor world local food economies as it had to do
with feeding the hungry British.
Furthermore, this catastrophe for nature was reinforced by earlier
versions of? the deference which Kay continues to show. Even the post-war
Attlee Labour government which brought in the Town and Country Planning
Act and the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act (with all its
system of nature reserves, SSSIs and National Parks) identified farmers
and landowners as the DEFENDERS of the rural landscape, not its principle
enemies.
That ideological mistake left the flood gates open to all the horrors of
the post-war onslaught on nature.
There were plenty of voices (and still are) calling for another,
more radical policy...for the extension of democracy to the management of
our land, not just our health, our schools, our transport infrastructure,
and so on. That is, they called for the countryside to be managed by the
collective of all its users and producers...farm workers and managers,
forestry workers, walkers, naturalists, water industry folk, food
purveyors, history folk and so on...
Kate sums up her approach by telling us that farmers and landowners are
'stewards of the land'.
But we all know that a steward/manager/bailiff is RESPONSIBLE to a higher
authority, and there is no such authority in our countryside. Indeed,
these 'stewards' are the ones who oppose even our legal presence on their
land, leave alone allow us any meaningful survey, monitoring, oversight,
or collective management function.
Landowners are not the stewards of our countryside...they are its petty
dictators and monopolists, and they defend nature only as
it privately suits them, and as they are obliged to do by what meagre laws
we have won...
Dave Bangs
----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 4:25 PM
Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 15
Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:
? 1. Re: Vandalism and right to roam (KAY fountain)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:30:01 +0100
From: KAY fountain
<[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Vandalism and right to roam
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
In reply to Richard Price,
? I do indeed? think that old meadow is a very valuable habitat, as are
ancient hedgerows. My point is that these forms of landscape were
created by the very capitalist landowners who David Bangs feels are not
currently caring for the land. As such I feel his stance is a double
standard.
With respect to the
'responsibility' for ploughing up old meadows, I
place that at the feet of agricultural policy rather than the farmer
trying to make a living, or the farm worker who drives the tractor.
Farmers were compelled to plough up large areas of old meadow during the
war and I think you'll find the 97% loss since then refers to those
meadows still present at the end of the war. Yes, farmers could have
said no to? ploughing up their meadows after the war, but the drive for
food production was imperative in post-war Britain where people went
hungry because we couldn't grow enough to feed ourselves. It was
impressed on farmers that they had a patriotic duty to squeeze as much
production from their land as possible, which meant introducing all the
modern methods which have been so bad for wildlife.? What I object to in
David Bangs' post is the ferocity with
which he insists that all
landowners are forces for evil.
On 24/08/2012 18:29, [email protected] wrote:
Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:
? ? 1. Re: vandalism and right to roam (KAY fountain)
? ? 2. Re: vandalism and right to roam (Richard price)
? ? 3. Re: vandalism and right to roam ([email protected])
? ? 4. Beekeeping Courses (Candi Gould)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
1
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:31:11 +0100
From: KAY fountain <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Adastra] vandalism and right to roam
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hello all,
? ? ? This is the first time I've jumped in on a conversation, but David
Bangs has made me quite cross. Well done Sarah for your stand.
With regard to the statement that there is far more vandalism on private
land?
? ? 'kids, dogs, litter, and
travellers notwithstanding...' is silly because this is precisely the
problem with public land.
I am interested that David thinks that old meadow is a valuable habitat
because this form of grassland was created by farmers 'vandalising' the
original habitat which might have been ancient forest, heathland, or
shrub cover in the far distant past. Large tracts of old meadow were
lost because the government forced farmers to plough it up during the
second world war, and the rest of the vandalism was largely due to the
pressure of successive agricultural policies, which are? really not the
farmer's fault. I could go on by pointing out that hedgerows are hardly
a natural feature and largely the result of the enclosures, but we'd be
here all day.
Farmers and
landowners are stewards of the land under our current
sociopolitical system and that may not be to David's liking but it is
what we have to work with and realistically isn't going to change in the
near future. Accepting that isn't 'meek' it is pragmatic. There really
isn't any benefit in conservationists standing on one side of an
imaginary fence and throwing stones. That kind of behaviour impedes
progress and prevents cooperation.
I personally abhor all kinds of shootin', huntin' and fishin', and will
speak out against those who undertake these activities, but I'm quite
content to wander the many miles of public right of way across our green
and pleasant land, and do not agree with a general right to roam.
I also agree with Sarah that this subject is too big and not really
suitable for this forum.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:08:26 +0100
From: Richard price <[email protected]>
To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] vandalism and right to roam
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Are you saying landowners including farmers are not responsible for
clearing meadows? I member reading that 97% were lost since ww2. How did
it happen one wonders? It was
not all ploughed up during the war but was lost as a result of the change
in policy from that point onwards. Landowners could have said no, but
meadows were not worth as much as Crops.
I note that you seem to think meadows don't have value except perhaps as
agricultural land. Please think again.
Well done David for your stand. I am cheering you on from the sidelines
whomever you are.
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 15:15:20
+0000
From: [email protected]
To: "Adastra discussion group" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] vandalism and right to roam
Message-ID:
<1965504524-1345821322-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-727725467-@b16.c19.bise7.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
What about all those wicked Neolithic farmers with their slash & burn
agriculture destroying the
ancient woodlands on the South Downs and leaving us with chalk grassland -
selfish buggers, who gave them the right? ;-)
Sent using BlackBerry? from Orange
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard price <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:08:26
To: Adastra discussion group<[email protected]>
Reply-To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] vandalism and
right to roam
Are you saying landowners including farmers are not responsible for
clearing meadows? I member reading that 97% were lost since ww2. How did
it happen one wonders? It was not all ploughed up during the war but was
lost as a result of the change in policy from that point onwards.
Landowners could have said no, but meadows were not worth as much as
Crops.
I note that you seem to think meadows don't have value except perhaps as
agricultural land. Please think again.
Well done David for your stand. I am cheering you on from the sidelines
whomever you are.
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:34:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Candi Gould <[email protected]>
To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Beekeeping Courses
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
INTERMEDIATE BEEKEEPING SKILLS
This course is aimed at beekeepers that have some experience in
beekeeping
and want to keep up to date.? The course is also an excellent way to
improve hive management skills without acquiring a formal
qualification.? This series of theory and practical evenings looks at
all aspects of managing a honey bee colony through the year including
transfer to new comb, making nucs, queen rearing, articicial swarming,
uniting, moving colonies, and inspection for diseases, honey production,
extraction and bottling, feeding & apiary records.
It is 30 sessions every Tuesday evening from January 2013 running from
6.30pm to 9.30pm and includes practical sessions at the hives.? Cost
?800 the course code is AA9/12/B.? Contact: 01273 892052 Email:
[email protected]
________________________________
? From: david bangs <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 11
Sarah...how do you know there is no 'vandalism' in the forbidden
countryside if you meekly do not go there?? (and, by the way, both
Scotland and Scandinavia have a freedom to roam, which is accepted with
a broad measure of consensus and lack of controversy).
I can tell you categorically that there is much more 'vandalism' on
private,
forbidden countryside than on public land...kids, dogs, litter, and
travellers notwithstanding...
Myself and friends are just in the middle of a long term survey of
middle Sussex for old unimproved meadows and pastures and I can tell you
that it is a hard task finding them, so comprehensively have private
landowners destroyed them...and when we do find em the majority are
damaged or at risk from bad or inappropriate management and sheer
neglect...for "what the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over."
How can we ever make the alliances and build the broad public support
for the conservation of nature if we keep reinforcing the message that
the (landless) public...all the 90% of us in built-up areas...are the
enemies, not the market, private property, and production for profit ?
It is only us urban oiks who have the collective potential to stop the
destruction of
nature...not the Daily Telegraph reading rural good-lifers who both
privately enjoy nature (cos they have the money to own their bit of it)
and destroy it (by their support and ownership of rampant private
capital).
"The earth is a common treasury" (as was said by a wonderful guy of the
name of Gerard Winstanley 360 years ago)
Dave Bangs
----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 7:55 AM
Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 11
Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
specific
than "Re: Contents of Adastra digest..."
Today's Topics:
?? 1. Re: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9 (Patrick Roper)
?? 2. Re: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9 (S J Patton)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 00:07:18 +0100
From: "Patrick Roper" <[email protected]>
To: "'Adastra discussion group'" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sarah.? How, as a member of the public, does one get to the places
where the
public is not allowed?
Patrick
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of S J Patton
Sent: 22 August 2012 22:00
To: Adastra discussion group
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
I'm not sure that free-range public access goes particularly well with
conservation. At least in areas where the public are not allowed there
is no
dog fouling, litter or vandalism.
Sarah
? _____
From: david bangs <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2012, 21:55
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
Lovely to hear of the increased no's of G Partridges, Corn Buntings et
al on
the Norfolk estate near
Burpham...but the conservation objectives for the
Partridge coincide with the 'sporting' objective of slaughtering them
when
their numbers get up enuf to 'sustain' that...and the slaughtering of
game
birds is incompatible with public enjoyment of the open countryside,
cos the
gamekeepers / land police will see you off if you stray from statutory
access provision.
I am not aware that either the Angmering Park or the Arundel Castle
estate
have dedicated a single acre of statutory access land on their
properties...and the only access we legally have is the access by
statutory
rights of way and statutory access land...which WE the landless public
fought for...against the opposition of most big landowners...especially
the
bird slaughtering ones...
Do tell me if I'm wrong.
We have no statutory open access to the lovely-but-damaged New Down
chalk
grassland, or half the Barpham Hill chalk grasslands, and the walks
over the
bleak arable prairies of the Angmering Park estate are as depressing as
they
are exhilarating...with massed pheasants running around like gormless
chickens awaiting their slaughterage...and the other chalk grassland
sites
(like Harrow Hill's wretched paddocked and disappearing west slope
chalk
grassland) are merely under-managed/badly managed 'precious fragments'
of a
destroyed landscape.
On the Arundel Castle estate we are still banned from access to the
Park via
the traditional and popular Whiteways entrance cos of the needs of game
bird
management in the
northern park...so we miss easily seeing the Hellebores
and orchids and other wildlife which used to be so easily accessible
(wot's
left of it).
The estate has just bought out the Forestry Commission lease on The
Rewell,
and the visitor welcoming notices of the Forestry Commission have been
replaced by the Euroforestry notices which make no mention of public
access
rights.
The Norfolk Estate say they will carry on managing The Rewell as the FC
did
(and the FC had an important project for conserving
Fritillaries...which
resulted in their re-introduction at Abbots Wood, folk will know).
I wouldn't put a penny on that...and my best guess is that there will
be a
slow squeeze on open public access, less attention and focus on
targetted
nature conservation management, and more emphasis on game bird
management.
Again, tell me if I'm wrong.
If the FC had bought out the Arundel Estate Rewell freehold (rather
than the
reverse) then the FC would dedicate the whole of The Rewell as
statutory
access land...
Now that WOULD be something worth celebrating...
Dave Bangs
----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:00
PM
Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
[email protected]
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
? 1. Online Entomology Course (S J Patton)
? 2. Sussex wildlife-friendly farmer needs your vote! (Thomas, Adrian)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 23:17:34 +0100 (BST)
From: S J Patton <[email protected]>
To: Adastra <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Online Entomology Course
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi
Does anyone know what happened with the online entomology course which
was
being trialled?
Thanks,
Sarah
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 09:27:46 +0100
From: "Thomas, Adrian" <[email protected]>
To: "Adastra discussion group" <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Sussex wildlife-friendly farmer needs your vote!
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Hi Adastrans
Have you been to see the masses of Grey Partridges and Corn Buntings
and
other farmland wildlife flourishing on the Norfolk Estate near Burpham
in West Sussex? Did you go and see the Rough-legged Buzzards or Pallid
Harrier there?
Well, Peter Knight who runs the farm, and has been so welcoming to
nature and naturalists, is one of the four finalists in this year's
RSPB
Telegraph Nature of Farming Award, the UK's largest farm wildlife
competition.? The Award celebrates the great work that many farmers do
to care for our countryside.
I'd love it if you could take a couple of minutes to ensure we get a
Sussex farmer crowned as worthy champion. To cast your vote, go to
www.rspb.org.uk/farmvote. The vote closes on 5 September.
If you could get your friends and family to vote too, that'd be great.
Thanks guys.
Adrian
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_______________________________________________
Adastra mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/adastra
http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/adastra-archives
End of Adastra Digest, Vol 75,
Issue 9
**************************************
? _____
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5217 - Release Date:
08/22/12
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:59:10 +0100 (BST)
From: S J
Patton <[email protected]>
To: Adastra discussion group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Patrick,
Not entirely sure where you are coming from. Are you asking how I know
that areas without the public are so nice?!!!!?
Alternatively. if you are playing devil's thingy,
let me turn the question on it's head and ask WHY the public should have
access to private land? Be that areas of the Arundel Estate, MoD land, or
even my back garden!?
Just a quick example. When Pagham Harbour was closed off during the F&M
outbreak, numbers and variety of breeding birds increased dramatically.
The fact is that the majority of 'the public' have little or no
understanding of the countryside be that from the farming or
conservation perspective. Many of the heathlands near me are Access
Land - covered in dog sh1t and ground-nesting birds continually
harrassed by dogs off the leads. Personally I am glad that there are
places where the public are not allowed, even if that means I can't go
there either.
BTW, good to talk again - it's been a long time!
Sarah
________________________________
From: Patrick Roper <[email protected]>
To: 'Adastra discussion group' <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 23 August 2012, 0:07
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
Sarah.? How, as a member of the public, does one get to the places
where the public is not allowed?
?
Patrick
?
From:[email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of S J Patton
Sent: 22 August 2012 22:00
To: Adastra discussion group
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
?
I'm not sure that free-range public access goes particularly well with
conservation. At least in areas where the public are not allowed there
is no dog fouling, litter or vandalism.?
?
Sarah
?
________________________________
From:david bangs <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2012,
21:55
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
Lovely to hear of the increased no's of G Partridges, Corn Buntings et
al on the Norfolk estate near Burpham...but the conservation objectives
for the Partridge coincide with the 'sporting' objective of
slaughtering them when their numbers get up enuf to 'sustain'
that...and the slaughtering of game birds is incompatible with public
enjoyment of the open countryside, cos the gamekeepers / land police
will see you off if you stray from statutory access provision.
I am not aware that either the Angmering Park or the Arundel Castle
estate have dedicated a single acre of statutory access land on their
properties...and the only access we legally have is the access by
statutory rights of way and statutory access land...which WE the
landless public fought for...against the opposition of most big
landowners...especially
the bird slaughtering ones...
Do tell me if I'm wrong.
We have no statutory open access to the lovely-but-damaged New Down
chalk grassland, or half the Barpham Hill chalk grasslands, and the
walks over the bleak arable prairies of the Angmering Park estate are
as depressing as they are exhilarating...with massed pheasants running
around like gormless chickens awaiting their slaughterage...and the
other chalk grassland sites (like Harrow Hill's wretched paddocked and
disappearing west slope chalk grassland) are merely under-managed/badly
managed 'precious fragments' of a destroyed landscape.
On the Arundel Castle estate we are still banned from access to the
Park via the traditional and popular Whiteways entrance cos of the
needs of game bird management in the northern park...so we miss easily
seeing the Hellebores and orchids and other wildlife which used
to be so easily accessible (wot's left of it).
The estate has just bought out the Forestry Commission lease on The
Rewell, and the visitor welcoming notices of the Forestry Commission
have been replaced by the Euroforestry notices which make no mention of
public access rights.
The Norfolk Estate say they will carry on managing The Rewell as the FC
did (and the FC had an important project for conserving
Fritillaries...which resulted in their re-introduction at Abbots Wood,
folk will know).
I wouldn't put a penny on that...and my best guess is that there will
be a slow squeeze on open public access, less attention and focus on
targetted nature conservation management, and more emphasis on game
bird management.
Again, tell me if I'm wrong.
If the FC had bought out the Arundel Estate Rewell
freehold (rather than the reverse) then the FC would dedicate the whole of
The Rewell as statutory access land...
Now that WOULD be something worth celebrating...
Dave Bangs
----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:00 PM
Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 75, Issue 9
Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
[email protected]
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/adastra_lists.sxbrc.org.uk
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[email protected]
You can reach the person managing the list at
[email protected]
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
specific
than "Re: Contents of Adastra digest..."
Today's Topics:
? 1. Online Entomology Course (S J Patton)
? 2. Sussex wildlife-friendly farmer needs your vote! (Thomas, Adrian)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 23:17:34 +0100 (BST)
From: S J Patton <[email protected]>
To: Adastra <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Online Entomology
Course
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi
Does anyone know what happened with the online entomology course which
was being trialled?
Thanks,
Sarah
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 09:27:46 +0100
From: "Thomas, Adrian" <[email protected]>
To: "Adastra discussion group" <[email protected]>
Subject: [Adastra] Sussex wildlife-friendly farmer needs your vote!
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<[email protected]>
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Hi Adastrans
Have you been to see the masses of Grey Partridges and Corn Buntings
and
other farmland wildlife flourishing on the Norfolk Estate near Burpham
in West Sussex? Did you go and see the Rough-legged Buzzards or Pallid
Harrier there?
Well, Peter Knight who runs the farm, and has been so welcoming to
nature and naturalists, is one of the four finalists in this year's
RSPB
Telegraph Nature of Farming Award, the UK's largest farm
wildlife
competition.? The Award celebrates the great work that many farmers do
to care for our countryside.
I'd love it if you could take a couple of minutes to ensure we get a
Sussex farmer crowned as worthy champion. To cast your vote, go to
www.rspb.org.uk/farmvote. The vote closes on 5 September.
If you could get your friends and family to vote too, that'd be great.
Thanks guys.
Adrian
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