Hi Greg,
thank you for your answer, there are few reactions within the text.
On 25.10.2012 21:53, Greg Blomquist wrote:
Hi Jaromir,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jaromír Coufal" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:30:55 PM
Subject: Re: Winged Monkey
Hello folks,
[snip]
There are three steps, which each user always needs to follow if he
wants to manage provider images:
1) Connect to provider account - add account details to our
application
(our system needs to connect to the provider so we can manage his
instances)
2) Import images from selected provider account (otherwise we have
nothing to manage)
3) Start/Pause/Stop images.
So both Winked Monkey and Conductor always need to cover these steps,
right?
I would argue that perhaps this is only true within the context of
problems that Conductor solves.
I am more thinking out loud than saying that this is the only true.
However, I do not agree that when we're not thinking about how
Conductor works we have to assume a user must necessarily complete
steps #1 and #2 to accomplish #3.
You're absolutely right that these types of things must have happened
at some time. But, I'm simply suggesting that there should exist a way
for a non-technical user to accomplish step #3 without ever laying a
hand on step2 #1 and #2.
Yes, I get the suggestion and it would be great if we can forget about
steps #1 and #2. Maybe I am just missing something, but when I am trying
to imagine user getting Winked Monkey for the first time, he runs it and
there is no content in it. How will the content get into Winked Monkey
if you say that user wouldn't have to lay hand on this part?
Regarding this, my thoughts lead to one thing:
So called non-technical user have to get somehow the content, otherwise
he has nothing to run. So he:
1) has to get (import) content by himself (steps #1 and #2) or
2) somebody has to get it for him (current Conductor approach)
And if we get to point that somebody will do this for him, we are
getting slowly to Conductor permissions. Somebody creating (importing)
content and then user just running instances.
[snip]
=
What I really like about Winked Monkey is, that we started to think
about UI from different point of view and started to care just about
users who are running images. Which definitely can inspire and help
us
to improve UX.
Great! I look forward to any feedback or input you have here.
I am happy to bring as much feedback as possible.
Another value I see in Winked Monkey project is, that we will
approach
broader audience and community of users - those having just few
images
across different providers.
But my question is, if this segment of users is big enough? Because
from
my point of view, being individual (or small company) running just
few
instances, I am usually choosing one provider and running all
instances
there - in this case I would not search for application unifying UI
for
running instances.
(maybe I am wrong on this one)
Honestly, we're never gonna produce and application that sits
between the single user managing only a few VMs and their cloud
provider. There's nothing that's going to compel that user to use
yet another interface other than the one provided by the cloud
company.
If they're managing VMs running on their own hardware, it's going to
be hard to convince them to run anything other than just
virt-manager (or, the new boxes interface).
Agree on this one.
The only scenarios that I think make any sense when thinking about
throwing a separate user interface between a user and their cloud
resources is the user that has either:
a) tons of VMs to manage, or
b) various cloud back connections to wade through
Yes, agree on this list, this is the same segment for Conductor as well
as for Winked Monkey.
In either case, giving the user some kind of application that might
simplify what they want to do right now could be a good thing.
The key is to determine the right user to focus on.
Conductor focuses on the administrator. Granted, there's potential
to dynamically reduce the scope of Conductor for each different
type of user that logs into an instance of Conductor. But, as you
pointed out earlier, there are pieces to the experience in
Conductor that are intrinsically administrative (setting up cloud
accounts and managing image lifecycles). These are the things that
I don't think should ever burden a non-technical user.
Winged Monkey, on the other hand, focuses on the non-technical user.
I understand, Greg. What you are trying to do is to split administrative
part from the common user's one. But if this is the case, the
user-portal still should somehow connect to the administrative part (and
it might be Conductor, or EC2 directly, or I don't know who) and get
content from there.
What you are saying is, that Conductor is for more technical experienced
users and Winked Monkey is for non-technical ones. Conductor is much
more complex, but as I said - by applying permissions and default
options, user will not be burden by unnecessary details.
=
Having talks about this particular type of users and creating
muck-ups
for their use-cases is definitely valuable for us. I feel, and I am
sorry to express my worries, that having stand-alone application as
Winked Monkey is (especially implementation and maintenance) would
consume lot of effort and resources. I think, that we can achieve
similar result with improving Conductor for less effort.
Two things need to be said here.
1) You're right. Conductor should continue to improve. Angus has
said as much in another section of this same thread. By all means,
Conductor should become the very best it can be.
I havn't been thinking or saying that Conductor development will stop.
What I just wanted to take into account is that we can (and from my
point of view, I would love to) reach similar result with Conductor.
2) We're an R&D group. It is specifically our decree to investigate
solutions. Granted, we have an application that's in the wild and
is supported. This means that we have to keep resources dedicated
to making sure this application meets its support agreement with
customers. I have this same commitment with the audrey slice of
aeolus.
But, we shouldn't let that fact stop us from investigating other
options.
Well I definitely agree, that it shouldn't stop us from trying
investigating options and finding new ways how to succeed. I understand
why you are trying to come out with this project and I didn't say that
we shouldn't do it.
I just wanted to raise some of my thoughts and the feeling that we might
be partly duplicating Conductor's effort.
Don't take this as a directive to drop everything related to
Conductor and start devoting time to Winged Monkey. You should only
get involved if it actually makes sense for you to do so.
Oh, no worries, I don't take it directive. I just wanted to bring out my
thoughts, which might help to see it from different point of view. I
don't say I am right, I don't say that these are my thoughts I will
insist on. Please, take it more like discussion about Winked Monkey and
Conductor, which helps to make the project more clear (at least to me).
-- Jarda
