Goya beauty, I think so.  Derek wants to define beauty
as limited to the pretty.  But beauty (as aroused in
us) can be ferocious and paradoxical.  In Goya we
experience paradoxical beauty.  It's the beauty of
what is absent rather than what is present.  When we
see Goya's major ptgs. we are confronted with various
forms of human failure, some violent, some just a
matter of being dumb.  What I've seen in so many Goya
ptgs. is exquisite color and very subtle paint
handling (not to mention compositions, etc.).  This
often borders on sweetness.  But in the midst of such
paradisacal color and poise are an abundance of human
failing, fear, anxiety, supersitition.  The beauty we
attribute to is our sensing what is lost. Goya is a
realist.  His paintings (and everything else he did)
show us what man has done to his earthly paradise, how
he has given up Eden. The horror we feel with Goya is
made clear by our sensing what has been foresaken.  So
Goya, I believe, is as much about beauty as any artist
who chooses other means to attain it.

Derek, of course, will disagree because he must. 
That's how he retains his identity.  For him to agree
would mean giving up or sharing a bit of his selfness.
 Goya, a unequalled genius,  would have liked to paint
his portrait.  
WC


--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > Yet aesthetics persists with the idea that
> 'beauty' is somehow central to
> > all art.
> > 
> Maybe there is something roughy comparable in the
> response of sexual 
> attraction or excitation.   I think it is a common
> for men -- and women too -- to be 
> more sexually drawn to someone who is not generally
> accepted as the most 
> "beautiful" person in the room. I have Hollywood
> friends who have remarked on the 
> "flawless beauty" of Nicole Kidman, but agree she is
> not as sexually exciting as 
> many "less perfect looking" women out there. 
> 
> In other words, just as mere "beauty" does not cause
> the most sexual arousal, 
> it does not necessarily cause the strongest
> "aesthetic experience". 
> Similarly, the responses vary from one sensibility
> to another. That is, it's misleading 
> to claim anyone is in some absolute way "sexy", and
> a second person is not. 
> Agreed -- this does not seem to apply to the most
> unfortunate examples of 
> either people or "works of art". There are some that
> would seem to be unable to 
> stir any excitation at all. 
> 
> (I'll cite my refraining from jumping on the
> vulnerable language of Derek's 
> remark. Similarly I hope listers will look past my
> deliberately kitchen-table 
> English to the idea it is obviously trying to
> examine.)
> 
> 
> 
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