Here is a map I just made of the PEAs:
https://arcg.is/1qK4Hm0 ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Hoppes" <mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2020 6:11:41 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far Pease size chunks are good right? That means I can get them cheap in the really rural area and may be less expensive in the metro area in the exact location I want to cover? On Jul 31, 2020, at 6:35 AM, Mark Radabaugh <m...@amplex.net> wrote: <blockquote> You can purchase C band spectrum, but it will be sold in PEA sized chunks. Opening prices have been announced, auction starts in December I believe. Not sure of the short form date but if you are going to bid in it you may want to form a group. Unfortunately some of the people you probably want to talk with might be in the CBRS auction which can make things difficult with the anti-collusion rules. Mark <blockquote> On Jul 31, 2020, at 3:46 AM, Gino A. Villarini < g...@aeronetpr.com > wrote: NO, C-band is going directly to auction block, without any SAS or sharing. There are some discussions to bring more CBRS like spectrum under 3550. 3300-3550 IIRC Gino Villarini Founder/President @gvillarini t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204 aeronet-logo inc500 fb-logo insta-logo in-logo tw-logo yt-logo www.aeronetpr.com | Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968 From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > on behalf of Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 11:37 PM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far They are repacking C-band to free up 3700-4000 “for 5G”. Does that mean not for us? From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2020 9:48 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far If the SAS ends up working out really well to protect incumbents can we expect more spectrum maybe the next 50-100mhz directly below where the new CBRS band is now? On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:38 AM Josh Luthman < j...@imaginenetworksllc.com > wrote: <blockquote> >We are looking back into deploying our 900 Aps putting one on each tower with >120 deg sectors at 20Mhz wide and roll with it lol! That says a lot =( Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 7:55 PM Dave < dmilho...@wletc.com > wrote: <blockquote> Mark, I had an interesting meeting with Cambium, federated and such to help us coordinate our channels and so far it been a bonus by getting all of my Aps to 30Mhz wide and shifting the channels so we all coexist My issue is whats going to happen in phase 2 I am sure Ill wake up and all my APs will be disabled or dropped Eirp We are looking back into deploying our 900 Aps putting one on each tower with 120 deg sectors at 20Mhz wide and roll with it lol! On 7/29/2020 12:40 PM, Mark Radabaugh wrote: <blockquote> At this point it depends on what your SAS is doing. Federated (at last conversation) was trying to do some GAA coordination but they were only looking at their own GAA assignments Google (at last conversation) was an expensive black box that says “YES” to any request as long as it doesn’t impact an incumbent. I don’t know what the others are doing. Mark <blockquote> On Jul 29, 2020, at 11:11 AM, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: Not yet. I guess that's still a wish list item. On 7/29/2020 11:09 AM, Steve Jones wrote: <blockquote> Wait, the lower 100 only denys grants if it impala a pal or the elusive incumbent? I thought SAS coordination was across the board in that CBRS chunk? On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:06 AM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: <blockquote> If you don’t have a PAL, you are GAA, anywhere in the 150 MHz. The only difference is that the upper 50 MHz is GAA only. If you request a frequency in 3650-3700 you would never get denied to protect a PAL operator. But there could be umpteen other GAA operators using that frequency, so I don’t think the SAS needs to consider things like frequency reuse because they just automatically approve the grant unless it would impact a PAL protection area or an incumbent. Also there can be a max of 7 PALs issued in a county, so there should be at least 30 MHz for GAA in the lower 100 MHz. Not a specific set of channels though. But again, there could be umpteen WISPs all trying to use that 30 MHz and I don’t think the SASes do anything to police or coordinate GAA. Even in the case where there is enough GAA spectrum in an area to accommodate everyone on separate frequencies, I don’t see how they would communicate this to the operators, since they either approve or deny grant requests, they don’t suggest gee why don’t you use this other frequency instead, it’s open. You have to do your own SA to determine that. And repeat regularly. Even if there was a mechanism in the protocols to request auto frequency assignment from the SAS, there’s more than one SAS. It’s a very complex system that doesn’t do much if everyone is GAA. Other than give us some more spectrum, and do away with LBT (which sucked). From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Steve Jones Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 9:44 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far there are only 50mhz gaa, im talking about the other 100 operation without pal On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:54 AM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: <blockquote> With or without PAL? If you’re GAA, I don’t think they care how you reuse or duplicate frequencies between your own sectors or with adjacent GAA users. I think you’re giving the SAS too much credit for policing or coordinating frequency assignments among GAA users. As long as you’re not stepping on an incumbent or a PAL protection area, I think they’ll give you a grant for whatever frequency you want. PAL holders will probably need to work this out though. From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Steve Jones Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 1:08 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far Is current SAS supporting SFG? if not, how will one reuse frequency now? On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 7:19 PM Mark Radabaugh < m...@amplex.net > wrote: <blockquote> There are several variants: Single Frequency Groups (SFG) are multiple CBSD’s that all operate on the same frequency. If you are going WTF - of course the base station and the CPE’s are all a single frequency group - keep in mind that in the mobile world the handsets are not CBSD’s. For our purposes each BS and all of it’s CPE’s have to be in a single frequency group. This is also for frequency reuse - if you use channels A, B, C on your network and reuse them in some type of pattern you would designate all of the A’s in one SFG, B’s in another, etc. If a SFG has to change channels they all have to change together. Coexistence groups would be systems where timing parameters match. Think multiple operators running LTE or a proprietary protocol on a common UL:DL ratio. Not all use cases want to use the same UL:DL ratio. Mark <blockquote> On Jul 28, 2020, at 6:42 PM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: As far as the SAS is concerned, it's all irrelevant. They were talking about coexistence groups where a group of operators could have overlapping assignments because the operators are using some mechanism to coexist in the channels assigned. I don't know if those made it to the end, nor what form they've taken. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender. Midwest Internet Exchange Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender. The Brothers WISP Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender. From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 5:11:04 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far Not at all. If I am running the same standard as someone else and the same split then I can synchronize with them and we aren’t going to interfere even if we’re relatively close. If on the other hand we are not running the same standards in the same split then we are going to interfere with each other even if we are very far away from each other. <blockquote> On Jul 28, 2020, at 6:01 PM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: </blockquote> <blockquote> The standards and settings are irrelevant. Tx power - loss = receive power. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender. Midwest Internet Exchange Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender. The Brothers WISP Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender. From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 4:55:27 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far How does the SASI sure there will be no interference? Since you can run so many different standards and settings? <blockquote> On Jul 28, 2020, at 5:03 PM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: </blockquote> <blockquote> Yep, and anyone not operating in cbrs without SAS gets big dollar reminders to stop On Tue, Jul 28, 2020, 3:59 PM Kurt Fankhauser < lists.wavel...@gmail.com > wrote: <blockquote> Josh, You will have interference protection through the SAS so that someone just can't blindly fire up right on top of your channel right next to you. Every AP has to get a grant from SAS before it can transmit. Also if Demand says 15 there is no way to tell if that is 15 individual bidders or if 4-5 bidders are trying to bid on 4x10mhz channels each. We will know when the auction is over more info but while the auction is taking place everything is a secret. On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 4:09 PM Josh Luthman < j...@imaginenetworksllc.com > wrote: <blockquote> Well if you do licensed PTP links it seems you don't get any kind of interference protection if someone else doesn't play by the rules and they don't get any punishment for doing so... If you think CBRS will give you interference free protection I'd love to know you do because I don't feel that's going to be a game changer for hitting customers. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 3:42 PM Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: <blockquote> drinking! They be purchased after the auction? Divided over 10 years, it's a manageable number for interference free spectrum. What do you pay per year in interference related truck rolls, tech time and list satisfaction? On Tue, Jul 28, 2020, 12:06 PM Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: <blockquote> Obviously the last round is public knowledge. After the auction is over, are the results of all rounds public information? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender. Midwest Internet Exchange Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender. The Brothers WISP Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender. From: "Mark Radabaugh" < m...@amplex.net > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 11:11:20 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Auction results so far Correct - no way to tell who is bidding. The complete list of bidders is public knowledge: https://www.fcc.gov/document/auction-105-35-ghz-qualified-bidders Which counties those 271 bidders are bidding on is only known by the FCC Mark <blockquote> On Jul 28, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Josh Luthman < j...@imaginenetworksllc.com > wrote: I assume the 14 or 15 bidders is a closely guarded secret? I can't begin to think who would be able to pay 30k around here for that besides Verizon/AT&T/Sprint... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 11:37 AM Mark Radabaugh < m...@amplex.net > wrote: <blockquote> Note that the confidentiality and anti collusion rules apply for anyone who filed the short form. Be very careful that what you say in here does not violate the FCC rules. Everything discussed so far is from the public information the FCC is releasing or from the auction public notice. To read the results Josh posted: The price does not include discounts - 75% of the posted price if you qualified as being under 25M/year in revenue - so closer to 27k There is also a rural provider credit. It reads: In the initial round the price of one 10Mhz PAL was $21,000 not counting any discounts you may have been eligible for. There were 14 bids at that price, with only 7 lots available. In the second round the price of one PAL was $24,000 (less discounts). There were 15 bids at that price, with only 7 available. In the 5th round the price for one PAL went up to $33,000 (less discounts) with demand down to 10 PAL’s. The price went up for ALL 7 of the PAL’s. The price will keep going up until the demand is equal to 7. Once demand gets to 7 there is still a posted price increase - but unless someone adds additional demand the price will stay at the previous start of round price. The price/demand could sit at 7 for the next (insert number) of rounds and then start going back up if another bidder decides they are priced out of one county and want to move to another county. Or if they are just playing games. Once a county is at or above a demand for 7 PAL’s the price won’t go down. If you get a PAL in a round and later decide you don’t want it, you are stuck buying it unless someone else bids at the higher price. You can change your demand to 0, saying you don’t want it anymore, but unless someone else wants it you are stuck with it. Just like a normal auction - once you are the winning bidder, you own it unless someone outbids you. For bidders there are required activity levels that you have to meet. Essentially you have to bid 95% of your initial deposit on each round. If you don’t bid that what you are allowed to bid in the next round goes down. The rule is basically to keep bidders from sandbagging - if you haven’t been bidding and are just waiting to see what others are going to do you will run out of eligibility pretty quickly. Mark <blockquote> On Jul 28, 2020, at 10:24 AM, Cassidy B. Larson < c...@infowest.com > wrote: It’s up to 37k per 10mhz block. Demand is going down though! lol Sent from my iPhone <blockquote> On Jul 28, 2020, at 08:22, Josh Luthman < j...@imaginenetworksllc.com > wrote: </blockquote> <blockquote> No idea how to read this: <image.png> Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:20 AM Kurt Fankhauser < lists.wavel...@gmail.com > wrote: <blockquote> Josh, Is your county up to 30k per 10mhz block? On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:08 AM Josh Baird < joshba...@gmail.com > wrote: <blockquote> Assuming it's too late at this point to get into the initial rounds that are taking place this week? Haven't really been keeping up with this. On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:54 AM Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: <blockquote> I also lost track of the whole auction situation. Will there be another round later? Seems like nobody bid on some of the counties around us, and I wish I'd thrown in a minimum bid at this point. On 7/28/2020 12:40 AM, Steve Jones wrote: <blockquote> Our starting bid was relatively inexpensive over the ten year term for our 5 counties and 4 pals each. Almost had the boss talked into giving it serious consideration so i could pull the trigger on the auction. then the world ended and that got back burnered. byt the time we came back to it there was no time to learn enough about the auction On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 9:54 PM Dave < dmilho...@wletc.com > wrote: <blockquote> My guess is none... Im sooo sick of the BS games the FCC and 'BIG BOYZ' Are playing. So funny how they say "Sure anyone can get a pal" FCC should have shoved a big FU to all WISPs and just let us die. When I first saw the pricing on our county and surrounding countys for bid I knew there was no chance. Let the lawsuits FLY... On 7/27/2020 5:51 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote: > On 7/27/20 15:42, Mark Radabaugh wrote: >> https://auctiondata.fcc.gov/public/projects/auction105 >> > > > I'm curious to see how many WISPs actually get a PAL when this is all > done. > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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