From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" <af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
“This is provably incorrect. Counterexample: slavery and forced labor.”
I’m not sure what the relevance is of forced labor in this discussion. Do you mean because a $0 “employee” drives down the market price?
Where are the slave welders that would alter Chuck’s pay scale? I’m open to further discussion on this point, but at the moment I don’t see how it’s relevant.
“$15/h may be an awesome deal or it may not, if working at McDonald's pays $18/h.”
If McDonald’s pays $18/hr and a welding trainee gets $15/hr, you are still better off long term taking the welding position. If you turn out to be a terrible welder then quit and go to McDonalds, but if you get good at it then your potential earnings go way farther up than the fast food industry. I will take the $15 and figure out how to make it work, and I’ll say thank you very much for this opportunity, sir. If I took the McDonalds position my best hope is to be a shift leader or assistant manager and I’d never make what a welder can make.
“Market wages do not really care about what's "fair" or "reasonable".”
Correct. 100%
From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 2:29 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
This is provably incorrect. Counterexample: slavery and forced labor.
$15/h may be an awesome deal or it may not, if working at McDonald's pays $18/h.
Market wages do not really care about what's "fair" or "reasonable".
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 6:09 PM
From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" <li...@packetflux.com>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
The value of someone with zero skills and experience is zero.
The fact that many employers are willing to hire someone that has zero skills and experience at $15/hr and train them at zero cost to the employee is an awesome deal for a person who wants an opportunity.
Unfortunately it seems that a lot of people with zero skills and zero experience think they should get paid at the same rate as someone who has gone to school on their own dime and learned a trade. Or the same as someone who has 20 years experience.
Apparently the electrical field has the same problems. Employers willing to take the risk on someone and pay not only to train the people but also to pay a survival wage during training are often rewarded by applicants that demand the same wages as fully licensed electricians.
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 8:08 AM <fiber...@mail.com> wrote:
I don't quite get the logic of this.
Why would you work for less than market wages?
How is working for less than market wages an investment in yourself?
- Jared
On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 Chuck Macenski wrote:
One way to say it: "The youth of today cannot live on $15 an hour so a lot of candidates will not even walk through the door because other places even in the field of welding pay higher to start."
Another way to say it: "The youth of today will not invest in themselves."
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 9:48 PM Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote:
A lot of what is happening now can be attributed to housing imho.
A house is your domain. The place you get things done. Your mind expands, you have more space to enjoy hobbies or learn something new. Personally, I don’t get that from an apartment when I have to worry about my neighbours and volume levels and having no space to do anything.
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with making your own sandwich, or living at your appropriate means, but I don’t consider living with roommates living. It’s a stepping stone to the American dream (owning a house).
My parents have told me about their times growing up, living in the single wide. The pipes would freeze every winter and my dad would be down there with the hair dryer in the 70’s to unthaw. That’s all fine and dandy. When they had me in 88, they bought a house, probably 1700sqft, it was nice. I wouldn’t have had the childhood I had by being in a trailer.
I don’t really believe in religion of any kind, they all have valuable teachings (and not so valuable) but I think it’s just how you think about the world at large. Things are always changing, and I don’t think it’s a bad mantra to think that the new generation should have it better than generations past. Doesn’t mean you have to stop learning, or applying yourself. In Canada specifically our housing is so out of control that even a new family with one kid still has to rent and/or be in a small apartment unless they wait until they’re 40 and have had decent paying jobs (70k) a year for a while.
Or live in the boonies and kill your own food, gather your own wood, and there’s nothing wrong with that either.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 5:25 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote:
Exactly what problems are young people facing? Almost every single one that wants to can enlist in the military. That will feed them and teach them a skill (and some manners, and how to work) and they will come out with the VA and GI Bill. Pell grants, student loans.
If someone wants to better themselves, they can. Kids today have it far easier than ever before. Work from home, online classes that are free, hell you can learn highly specialized technical stuff on Youtube.
What is wrong with making yourself a sandwich? If you are broke, don’t f**king spend. You are making my point for me.
Oh, the horrors of having to cook your own food, walking to work and living in a single wide. Those are human rights abuses man! (said all the snowflakes and they melted and went down the storm sewer)
Where on the stone tablets that Moses brought down from the mountain does it say: “Young people should have it easier than you had it”?
You eat what you kill.
From: Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 5:55 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Not defeatist or jealousy or envy.
I’m 34, I bought a 2500sqft house on a green belt in 2013 (25 Years old). Sold my company, and I live an extremely comfortable life for someone my age. No mortgage, a couple nice cars. I worked very hard, lots of long nights, lots of learning to get to where I’m at, and did it all without having any generational wealth to start with. To phrase it for you old folks, I pulled myself up by my bootstraps.
However, your attitude is what makes me call you a boomer. You seem to have no empathy and are not willing to discuss the current problems facing young people today. You keep referencing back to how you did it, and just a few bucks in the 80's or the 70's or whatever. I could see it in your post. Saying things like "Make a sandwich at home, ride the bus, live in a trailer"
Don't get me wrong Chuck, you're a smart guy. I've learned a lot from you over the years both in person and through this list. I take that as one of my core values is to listen to people, even when I think they're stupidly wrong, and make sure I never close myself off to any viewpoint and that makes me better in everything I do.
I just think you're hand waving away a lot of current economic issues plaguing the world. Young people should have it easier than you had it, just like you had it easier than someone born in the 20's. Or should we just keep letting trillion dollar corps run the world and you got yours, so the young kids can go pound sand because their $18/hr job should suffice. (BTW my first "real" job back in 2008 was 35k a year) I was 19. No schooling, and that would be your $18/hr now.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 3:20 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote:
Defeatist attitude.
Or just jealous? Envy?
In 1990 I was so broke I was sitting on the side of the highway with my 4 kids (at the time) selling everything I had to get a bus ticket to get out of town to get to a job to make a few bucks to move the family.
Fast forward 10 short years and I had enough to retire.
Just hard work. At 40 no less, not 50.
And now 33 years later my house is 5 X larger than that.
Hell, my garage is bigger than that.
And my only roommates have been my kids.
But there was some sleeping in dirt and enjoying it at certain periods.
Doncha only wish you could be like a boomer...
From: Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 3:48 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
lol. These boomers I swear. Live in your 5 roommate 2000sqft box until 50, retire at 87. Bcck in my day I slept in a dirt pile and we enjoyed it.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 2:41 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote:
Fantasy land
From: Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 2:54 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
I think ages make a huge difference in a lot of this. If you're talking about a 17 year old, you're still living at home, saving all your money, trying to get out. Sure, $17 an hour would be amazing.
If you're 22, you should be able to afford a 1br apartment on your own, you shouldn't need roommates, you should expect that you can save 1k a month for the future, maybe purchase a home by 28? You're going to need to make more than $17 an hour.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 1:10 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote:
Not sure I am getting your point. Young people frequently struggle when starting out. The struggle is valuable. You get ahead by getting educated, getting trained, learning skills people will pay you for. You do not deserve anything but free air to breath and perhaps water if you live in an area where it rains. You eat what you kill.
In your example below you are not taking into account, those with half a brain will have roomates with which to split all the rent and utilities. That one move makes it go to having plenty of spending money.
So what is it you want me to learn here? In 1979 milk was $1/gallon. It is now $4.33. Same price adjusted for inflation ...
I do not buy that the kids now-a-days have it any worse than I did.
Cost of a big mac in 1979 was 95 cents. Today, $4.50, same price adjusted for inflation...
What do I need to learn here???
From: Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 1:58 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Cc: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Chuck,
I'm going to assume you're not trying to cherry pick statistics and want to learn and listen.
Housing is only one part of the equation. Food, services, fuel, goods are at all time highs. Rental markets are becoming unfeasible unless living with roommates. I'm not sure where or how this mobile home fits in with the work in your area. Is there work in the area for your daughter to earn $18 an hour?
Talent.com says that at $18 an hour, working for 40 hours a week, gets you $2500 monthly net.
Going off these assumptions Cost of Living in Utah (2023) | SoFi
Rent: $1100
Food (No Restaurants): $253Utilities: $300
Gas?: $400
I think you yanks have things like health insurance. $100/mo?
I haven't thought of everything, but you're already up to $2200/mo. You don't get ahead because you're behind before you even start.
Now take into account that the average home price in Utah is $500k and you cherry picked some bottom of the barrel trailer. I can't tell if you're being serious or not.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 11:55 AM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com> wrote:
One of my millennial daughters, grown, married, trying to adult, lives with her brother and his wife told me that I just don’t understand how hard it is today compared to when I was younger. So I did a little comparison for her:
My first paid job in 1976 was $2/hour. That would be about $10.70/hour today.
(I was an unpaid apprentice to a machinist in 1974, and slave labor on the farm from 1960 until I escaped).
My first skilled, formally trained, semi professional, utility lineman job in 1979 paid $4.50/hour.
That would be about $18 today.
My first home, single wide 10 x 50 mobile home cost $12,000 in 1982. Or about $36K today.
So how is it people have it so much worse today?
From: Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 11:39 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Too many parents want to be friends with their kids and not actually parent. Good news is, if you do a good job of parenting, you’ll likely have the opportunity out to become friends with your kids after they move out.
Jeff Broadwick
On Feb 14, 2023, at 1:25 PM, Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.com> wrote:
Yeah, that’s a problem for sure.
All the youth (and some adults) see online is prosperity and wealth and entitlement.
Your definition of existing just doesn’t even come to their minds. To use a phrase, they literally don’t comprehend it.
I was living happily in a one room apartment for $400 a month and eating the same PB&J and soup for lunch/dinner on almost no monthly spend.
I had an old futon bed that I had purchased in college as furniture. My monthly output was focused on paying rent and a bit for food and my car.
I was hungry for more, made my way by learning, taking what I could find and working my way up.
And during none of that did I think to myself, “This is shit, I am entitled to more because I exist.” Lol
My grown kids ask for very little and even then get told no all the time, or have conditions.
I worry about my younger kids that have spent a lot more time online. They still know they get nothing as a default, but they are more entitled in language and practice than my older kids.
Society online in general isn’t doing anyone any favors.
I mean some of the youtube crap they watch is just inane, and some of these people just throw around money like it magically appeared to them out of thin air without a care.
There is no accountability or explanation.
From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 10:37 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
I advertised for hiring yesterday, a no experience necessary, get paid to learn MIG mild steel welding. PT/FT flexible hours. We hire 17 year olds. I immediately got crap from this guy saying that the “young people of today” cannot exist on less than $18/hour which is what he gets and he works from home.
Lots of people defended my $15/entry level, get paid to learn welding position.
He deleted his post then sent me this:
Hello there,
Our of respect for you because it wasn't my intent to cause tension, I've deleted my comment on your posting. My only point was to emphasize that the going rate for a lot of entry level jobs is much higher than $15 an hour. Welding is a great skill and can open up great avenues in the future.
However, The youth of today cannot live on $15 an hour so a lot of candidates will not even walk through the door because other places even in the field of welding pay higher to start.
What I emphasized at my company starting at $18 is just one example. We have people here that make well over $50 an hour because we operate on a commission structure. But that $18 base is livable when a one bedroom is $1000+ in tooele a month and depending on where you live it's as low as $1600+
Again, never meant to offend so I am sorry for causing you any trouble.
I replied:
So you expect someone to walk from High School directly into a job where they can have a nice home, car and things? Wow, without learning a trade, profession or other skill? Our $15/hour people take home $2000/month. Pretty sure someone can exist on that and the smart ones will have roommates or live with their parents. And the smarter ones will quickly be making more than $18/hour. We have exactly zero problems finding as many workers as we need. So your opinion that "youth of today" cannot exist on $15/hour is just that, unfounded opinion. I guess your definition of "exist" is different than mine. You can exist by walking, riding a bicycle or taking a bus to work. You can exist by eating home cooked meals and making a home made sandwich for your lunch. You can exist by wearing clothes from a thrift store. You don't need the latest iPhone and Netflix to exist. Read a book. The struggle IS the journey and is what creates grit and strong character.
He replied and blocked me:
Yeah Okay Boomer. I was reaching out to be nice but you clearly have no idea what life is like for us today. I just bought my first house at 31 because of how shit things are right now compared to when you were younger. But thanks for proving my point by being an asshole about "my definition of exist"
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