In the end, everyone on this list wants the same thing. Peace. Another good book to read is “The Looming Tower”.
It explains how we got an Egyptian religious scholar being insulted by a girl (in Colorado if I remember correctly perhaps in the 1950s) directly to 9-11. Truly “butterfly effect” type of stuff. Both that and the curveball story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Looming_Tower We can blame politicians but there are these other factors at work as well. Just like how WW1 got started. From: Jaime Solorza Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 5:39 PM To: Animal Farm Subject: Re: [AFMUG][WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français Good points Patrick and Faisal... Let me guess ...both of you have travelled all over. I have been fortunate to travel and work with many international folks throughout my life. Best thing my dad taught besides us jujitsu was to learn and respect other cultures. He advised us to learn more than English and Spanish...said world is getting smaller.. He recommended Japanese or Mandarin. This was in the late 60's...then again I was fortunate to study with the Jesuits in the early 70s...learned to be a critical thinker plus even though it was a Roman Catholic school it had more Jewish students than Protestant or Catholics...quality of education was key. Anyways I made life long friends from different faiths which have enriched my life. Then college.... Eyes opened to many cultures and ideas. At 60 I am still learning.... I consider myself truly blessed.... On Nov 16, 2015 5:20 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <[email protected]> wrote: Yes, but you are forgetting the little fact..... Germany and Japan were 'easier' to change because they were both 'Kingdoms', so the argument of Democracy is a better way was sell-able....(sorry if I am making words here). In the Middle East, we come across as talking from both sides of our mouths, How do you sell Democracy while supporting Dictators and Kings.... the only thing visible to everyone is 'Hippocracy' along with $$$ being dangled in-front of them... they shut-up and take the $$$ obviously... Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Rory Conaway" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 7:04:32 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français Changing a country is possible, we did it in Germany and Japan. In the Middle East, it is possible, it just takes a lot more effort and time. You have to change the mind-set of the country, not just it’s leaders. And if you fail, you try something different the second time and do it again. I believe it’s possible, just not with the government we elected. It would take someone with vision and an 8 year plan because our populace is simply too ignorant and selfish to grasp the enormity of the effort. Rory From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 4:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français "If we do it right, Democracy thrives..." The ultimate in wishful and naive thinking, the thought that every country can (or even wants to) have a government like ours. Never mind there's not a shred of evidence for this in the entire recorded history of the Middle East...but hey, it fits your narrative that it's all Obama's fault. Patrick On Nov 16, 2015 6:25 PM, Rory Conaway <[email protected]> wrote: We installed a dictator and we let him act like a dictator. In Iraq, we installed a Democracy but we left it in the hands of ideologues. We also alienated the military and just dumped everyone out. If we do it right, Democracy thrives, we have a Middle Eastern ally and we hold influence meaning our allies still trust us. We cut and ran for politics. Rory From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sean Heskett Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 4:22 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français Rory, we already tried that strategy with Iran...the puppet government that we instilled for over a generation was overthrown and we now have an Iran that is governed as a theocratic Islamic republic :-/ 2 cents -sean On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Rory Conaway <[email protected]> wrote: Sean, I’d love to take the bait but I can’t even think of something smarmy to say with the devastation in Paris hours after our President says that ISIS was contained. It’s a very sad moment. Unfortunately, when you add in the millions who are now homeless, displaced, and dead, because our governmental leaders, and by extension, the voters that put them in power, I think that uneducated should also mean putting ideology in front of common sense and the lessons of history. Iraq needed a heavy glove until a satisfactory government structure that could be put in place over a generation or more, until the hatred of the current generation was phased out and a better society with more opportunity and education was put in place. This wasn’t going to happen in an election cycle, especially with the differences between the parties. Rory From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sean Heskett Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 3:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français <sarcasm> yes it is usually very hard to argue logic with republicans ;-) "It’s very hard to argue logic with people who are uneducated, poor, and have been indoctrinated from birth to an ideology." </sarcasm> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Rory Conaway <[email protected]> wrote: If we are up front about it, Germany, Japan, etc…, it seems to work. But we installed Democracies there with people who didn’t put ideology in front of the rule of law. In the Middle East, ideology is the rule of law. It’s very hard to argue logic with people who are uneducated, poor, and have been indoctrinated from birth to an ideology. Rory From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 1:04 PM To: af <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français It seems to have worked okay in Germany and Japan... but that was a bit different. otherwise, I can't think of a case where it really ever has worked. On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Chuck McCown <[email protected]> wrote: My simple mind concludes whenever we go somewhere and attempt to alter the political landscape by force or dirty tricks it always makes things worse in the long run. Has it ever worked? When the people decide to change their situation then there is sometimes lasting change. From: Faisal Imtiaz Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 12:38 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français I think you all are missing the point.... When it comes to foreign policy it is done with all sides involved, along with the give and take, when things go right, everyone stands up and says 'We did it".... when something goes wrong, everyone stands up and says.. "He or She did it", and "I told you so otherwise". Excuse the language but ... 'We have been F**ing in other Gov. affairs, known and unknown for a very long time, and the results of such have consequences which linger for a very long time..'.... It is easy to play armchair political analysts with a short term view, but the picture changes when the view expands with History..." case and point... How many here know and realize what is the cause of US Iran's rocky relationship..... ? The roots of this is traced back to actions in the 1950's .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat (read the first sentence carefully, and then think of how you can have a conversation with them about democracy ) While we is the west tend not to have long memories, and stay awake during History Classes, those affected, tend not to forget ! Iraq is a similar deal...that country has Shia majority.... so it is very likely that any Democratically elected gov will be tilted towards the Shia's, that is not something US & Britain are in favor off, nor the regional Arab dictatorships... thus the status quo.... Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Broadwick - Lists" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 2:00:53 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français There are a number of actions, under a pretty wide set of circumstances, where the US President can act without Congressional approval. All Presidents push the boundaries. No one really wants to test the Constitutionality of the War Powers Act (it's likely unconstitutional). Jeff Broadwick ConVergence Technologies, Inc. 312-205-2519 Office 574-220-7826 Cell [email protected] On Nov 16, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <[email protected]> wrote: You are half correct. There a number of small facts that you have missed, but if you follow the explanation, rightfully so. News organizations are in the business of making $. The only report what they can sell in that particular market. e.g CNN supplies news feeds to the world, it's just not the same news feed that they supply to everyone. News feed, for the US is very different what they supply to their 'international customers' This is true for all of the news broadcasters. BTW, Al Jazeera has been kicked out of many 'Muslim' countries due to their coverage and reporting. BBC is commissioned by Her Majesty, as such the loyalty to the British Empire... Here is the part that I don't understand...... Everything that I know about the US Gov. System, when it comes to foreign policy the President cannot take uni-lateral action...it has to have the Congress's blessing.. So why is it when one is talking about the US's actions, everyone refers to it as if the US President is acting like any of the other dictators. Is is just a way to dump on a President cause he or she is from the other party ? Last time I checked, irrespective of all the rhetoric from Washington, all parties were equally responsible for participating in actions which have lead to Foreign Policy failure after failure... Regards. Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rory Conaway" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 12:44:40 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français News as a disinterested third party, is pretty much dead. All news organizations have a political leaning including BBC, Al Jazeera, and NPR. In many cases it’s not what they report, it’s what they fail to report that is just as bad or worse. BBC rarely reports anything negative about the British Government and is as bad as the New York Times about not reporting anything negative about a Democrat. Of course both of them do it, but the amount of time or the amount of resources will be far less than the opposite side of the side of the issue. Al Jazeera never reports anything bad about the Muslim or Islamic faith and NPR is almost as bad as the BBC when it comes to never saying anything about a liberal government. I think NBC, CBS, and ABC have the same advisor telling them what negative information not to report on Obama for example. As for NPR, they lost all credibility with me when they fired Juan Williams because he said something their management didn’t like and he is a huge liberal. There is an argument now that Google can pretty much influence an election by a huge amount by pushing positive news information in their search engine about their liberal candidate up while simultaneously doing the same thing in a negative light towards a Conservative candidate. At this point, it’s pretty much up to us to watch news organizations from both sides of the aisle and try to sort out the truth. Rory From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul McCall Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 8:11 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français +1. Since we have a pretty good idea of what slant that CNN and Foxnews will put on things without looking, respectively, I just glance at that both once in a while. BBC is a good choice. Paul From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 9:34 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français BBC is good. Al Jazeera is surprisingly informative and seems to lack spin. I listen to NPR continually. Card carrying GOP but am truly libertarian, cannot vote demo primarily due to guns and the abortion issue. Fox news is like eating a whole bag of halloween candy. After watching fox I have to watch some Rachael Maddow to be able to drive straight again. (In reality, I avoid TV news. Radio and Google News is were most of my disinformation comes from). I don’t like apologists, religious or otherwise. I like the best truths I can find. I really hate partisan politics. Blood sport all based on pride and self aggrandizement. Does nothing for the people. From: Glen Waldrop Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 7:20 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG][WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français You're right on one thing, politics is not as cut and dried as all of that. Obama is a jackass. Fox news is far from perfect. As a businessman though I recommend not calling your potential customers dumb though. Fox may be a group of liars, but at this point in time they are the least biased news source in the US (50% biased vs 100%). Pretty much all of the rest of them are brown nosing the left so bad I can't see how they haven't suffocated themselves. When I want news with little BS I tend to lean towards BBC myself. ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Leary To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG][WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français The world is such a simple place when everything is Obama’s fault. Somebody smashes a glass to the ground. 12 years later, people blinded by partisanship blame the person who tried to glue some of the pieces back together, but the glass still won’t hold water so it must be his fault. Extremely disordered cognitive functioning. …Never mind the real subtleties all the “informed” people on the Right seem to forget, chief among them that the IRAQI POLITICIANS SAID THE ONLY WAY WE COULD KEEP OUR TROOPS IN COUNTRY WAS TO REMOVE THEIR IMMUNITY AND MAKE THEM SUBJECT TO LIABILITY AND PROSECUTION. No one on this side of the pond wanted that, from the DoD to BOTH parties. Of course, FOX viewers either are too dumb to know this or intentionally pretend that was not the reality, in order to take yet another “it’s Obama’s fault” grade school insult. It’s just way more satisfying or simpler for their juvenile world view to believe “it’s Obama’s fault!” What, are you 10 years old? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/world/middleeast/iraqis-say-no-to-immunity-for-remaining-american-troops.html?_r=0 People really need to educate themselves before spewing childish partisan memes. Patrick From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 8:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français We had our chance to stop it in Iraq, we cut and run. And you are right, we didn’t do the right bombing in Vietnam to stop that war. And what Ford did at the end is the lesson Obama should have learned which could have prevented much of what happened in the Middle East including ISIS. Apparently they didn’t teach history to at Harvard. Imagine the influence a multi-cultural and stable Iraqi government would have had on the region. Rory From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 6:31 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français Collateral damage is highly underrated. Vietnam had no wholesale bombing like WWII. that is one reason Vietnam, and the rest of these conflicts, last so long. The horror of war has to be brought to everyone, including those making the decisions, to bring it to an end. But having said that, this Muslim extremists movement has been been going on for about 700 years so it may be to much to expect to be out of war again. There may be a lull, but I think the entire world has been drawn into the middle East quagmire. The primary cause damn sure isn't a two degrees warming tend in a couple decades. On Sun, Nov 15, 2015, 7:05 AM Rory Conaway <[email protected]> wrote: The problem is that they are basically imbedded with civilians. How do you kill them without taking out everyone else. That is the problem we have had all along. Door-to-door warfare is all that you can do but it’s also the most dangerous for our soldiers and nobody is going to allow wholesale bombing like Nixon did in Vietnam. We also burned a lot of good will in all the countries we need to do this with when we got the local civilians to act as translators and informants and abandoned them after the war, the highest profile of them the doctor in Pakistan. Even he is still in jail years later but the reality is, nobody trusts us any more in those regions. We are not a reliable ally. Rory From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:06 AM To: Animal Farm <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français as much as i hate war and killing....I agree we need to make a parking lot out of them... Jaime Solorza Wireless Systems Architect 915-861-1390 On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Chuck McCown <[email protected]> wrote: The more of this that happens, the more the rest of the world will unite to rub them out. I am a hopeless optimist. From: Jaime Solorza Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 7:52 AM To: Animal Farm Subject: Re: [AFMUG][WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français Yes. I am praying for them and the world. What a tragedy.. It is beyond barbaric..its evil for the sake of evil. Jaime Solorza On Nov 13, 2015 10:15 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <[email protected]> wrote: Oui , et pas seulement cela , nos cœurs et nos prières pour tous ceux qui sont touchés par cette Sensless actes brabaric . Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] ------------------------------------------------------ From: "Patrick Leary" <[email protected]> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>, "Telrad List" <[email protected]>, [email protected], [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 7:46:29 PM Subject: [WISPA] S'il vous plaît priez pour nos amis français Tonght, chaque personne libre est un Parisien. 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