And if it is a BGA chip, no way to even connect to the chip. From: Chuck McCown Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 6:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450 Watchdog resets - was: To Cambium WithLove- Replace the bad ePMP units.
I doubt it would be quick enough. You will have to sample the memory chip pins many times per clock cycle to catch glitches. From: Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 6:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450 Watchdog resets - was: To Cambium With Love- Replace the bad ePMP units. Pi and console cable??? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Jan 21, 2016 8:05 PM, "Chuck McCown" <[email protected]> wrote: I am guessing that if it caused by a fight between two CPUs/FPGAs for common memory, any dumps would be different each time. You would actually have to put a hardware logic analyzer on the pins of the chip to catch it. From: Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 5:58 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450 Watchdog resets - was: To Cambium With Love- Replace the bad ePMP units. Would it be helpful to have a test or memory dump load for the APs it's happening consistently on? Rather than reproducing it in the lab, just use real repeating units. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Jan 21, 2016 7:50 PM, "Aaron Schneider" <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Everyone – Sorry for the delay in response on this thread. I’d like to give an update of where we are with this issue. First off, I would like to apologize for the issues that this is causing. We have heard reports for awhile in varying fashion, and Tushar had been talking about having things like this for quite some time, but we were having issues finding some correlation between reports (configuration, network topology, etc), as well as being unable to recreate the issue in our lab on demand. This issue appears to have definitely got worse in the 13.4 release and is becoming more widespread as the weather turns. What we have found out in the last several weeks is that there is an issue with the memory controller code in the FPGA. What this leads to is memory coherency being lost which actually has now been verified to lead to several issues. We had seen reports of various resets over time but had no reason to correlate them to one root cause until now. The most prevalent of these is the Watchdog Reset without any accompanying crash log. The other issues with the same root cause are the Illegal Instruction crash, the Invalid NiBuf crash, as well as any Null Exception Handler crash. The bottom line is, when memory contents glitch on your software, it depends on when it happens as to what the outcome is. We have found this to be very reproducible at very cold temperatures (-20C -- -50C), but it has been seen and reported at higher temperatures, just not as often. The nature of the FPGA based memory controller is that there can be timing issues that get exacerbated at extreme temperatures. If you don’t have proper constraints in place for a given signal path, its timing characteristics can change on you as temperature changes. Also, if you don’t have a proper constraint in place, even recompiling the FPGA can change the characteristics that then make what used to work fine susceptible to extremes. Something happened with the 13.4 FPGA that brought this to the edge such that it is now a problem and as we are seeing with winter cold coming in, becoming much more prevalent at cold temperatures. 13.4 and 13.4.1 have the same FPGA. 14.1.2 has a new FPGA and there have been some improvements made in this area, but we have found it is still susceptible to the problem. We are reproducing the problem in our lab and we have multiple developers digging in to figure out what is going on. These types of issues with timing are generally very difficult to find and fix, but this is our highest priority right now and we will not have another release until this is fixed. I’ve talked mostly about 13.4 and 13.4.1 here, but the nature of this issue and how it can interact with hardware doesn’t preclude it from having been the cause of the issues some (like Tushar) have seen over time. Once we have a fix for this, we will be adding more rigorous regression testing including an internal HW memory test to validate that this type of memory issue doesn’t come back again. From what we’ve seen and heard, this issue only affects the 450 AP FPGA and is not an issue on the 450 SM, 430AP/SM, nor the 450i devices. The 450i is a very different architecture and has a hardware based memory controller and watchdog timer whereas on the 450/430 based devices, these items are in the FPGA. Again, I apologize for the severe inconvenience and realize that it is getting colder and colder in NA so we are racing against the clock with this. As soon as we have any updates and new open beta loads with a fix, I’ll let you know. I appreciate your patience. Regards, -Aaron From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 4:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450 Watchdog resets - was: To Cambium With Love- Replace the bad ePMP units. I was assured today that the issue isn't the hardware.� Evidently this issue can be solved with an upcoming software upgrade. Time will tell. http://community.cambiumnetworks.com/t5/PMP-450/13-2-to-13-4-System-Reset-Exception-Watchdog-Reset/td-p/43347/page/2 On 1/21/2016 4:02 PM, Joe Falaschi wrote: We have some APs that have uptime over 60 days but many reboot every 1-3 weeks. �This is definitely an outlier. �We've been in contact with Cambium on this via an open ticket and sending them all of the information they request and nobody has said oh gosh that is bad hardware RMA it. �So, we're just going around and around. �We'll end up just replacing it and hoping they will take it back because obviously this is bad. �We are running 14.x per their request. �We saw this on 13.x as well. Joe On Jan 21, 2016, at 12:05 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: Joe, that is seriously bad.� I see watchdog resets and a few stack dumps, but uptime on 450 APs is typically 2-4 weeks, despite the recent cold weather, in fact I don�t think it has been more common than it was last summer.� I have not gone to 14.x though, everything is still on 13.2. � So either you have a bad unit, or 14.x is making it much worse.� If everyone was seeing resets every few minutes or hours, I think there would be villagers with torches and pitchforks outside Cambium HQ. � Brian from FVI does have a thread on the Cambium Community about this. � FWIW, I have one 450i 900 MHz which necessarily is on 14.1, and it does not appear to be having watchdog resets.� Lightly loaded however, just 2 subs. � � From: Joe Falaschi Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:34 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450 Watchdog resets - was: To Cambium With Love- Replace the bad ePMP units. � We see a ton of reboots on the 450 platform as well.� It's getting pretty frustrating simply because this is such a long term issue.� One of my APs has rebooted 195 times (now running 14.1.2).� They are saying we should replace the AP but it is unclear if we can RMA it or not.� We do have an open ticket. � Joe Falaschi e-vergent � � � <Screen Shot 2016-01-21 at 11.30.16 AM.png> On Jan 20, 2016, at 9:26 PM, Mark Radabaugh wrote: Hum�� sounds very similar.�� It�s temperature sensitive as well - gets far worse with low temperatures, and we are having pretty cold temps this week.�� � Extremely frustrating and causing real customer complaints. � Mark � On Jan 20, 2016, at 9:28 PM, Tushar Patel <[email protected]> wrote: � Over two years we have been seeing random reboot. We were told over and over again you are the only one.� Then few people started reporting. � But cambium never could get bottom of the problems for two years so, I gave up on cambium fixing this random reboot.� We stop calling them about it. � As the new versions of the software has come out over two years we have see the frequency of the problem reduce but not gone away. Tushar � On Jan 20, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Mark Radabaugh <[email protected]> wrote: Tushar, � What did you give up on?�� Or do? � Please note the mailing and shipping address change below: � Mark Radabaugh Amplex 22690 Pemberville Rd Luckey, OH 43443 419-837-5015 x1021 [email protected] � On Jan 20, 2016, at 4:49 PM, Tushar Patel <[email protected]> wrote: � That's what they used to tell us too.� We have given up on the subject now. Tushar � On Jan 20, 2016, at 1:09 PM, Mark Radabaugh <[email protected]> wrote: Wait - they keep telling us we are the only ones that this happens to with 450? � So who else is having reboot-o-rama with 450�s? � Mark � On Jan 20, 2016, at 1:20 PM, Brian Sullivan <[email protected]> wrote: � I wish they would fix/replace the bad 450 AP's that suffer from Watchdog Resets.� Although replacing 100 450 AP's is cheaper than ePMP.� :-/ On 1/20/2016 12:11 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: Why would making the memory faster degrade performance? � � Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 � On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Tyson Burris @ Internet Communications Inc <[email protected]> wrote: Hello Cambium, � At the MidWest-IX launch party last night, several of us Indiana WISPs compared notes on the �cold weather� problems we are seeing with ePMPs.� It was very interesting to learn we are experience identical problems across the spectrum. We all understand this is a DRAM issue with certain units you have identified.� We also understand the firmware RC that has been made available to fix this short term. The bottom line is we are very frustrated and grow tired of dealing with it.� � Our concern is simple.� If your software fix �degrades� the performance of the product or triggers other issues, as it has been suggested, we would prefer a full recall and replacement program immediately. � If the suggestion that the fix will degrade the product performance is inaccurate and not cause other issues, I would like for this to be made public.� � Thank you, � Tyson Burris, President Internet Communications Inc. 739 Commerce Dr. Franklin, IN 46131 � 317-738-0320 Daytime # 317-412-1540 Cell/Direct # Online: www.surfici.net � <Mail Attachment.png> What can ICI do for you? Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure. � CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the addressee shown. It contains information that is confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly prohibited. � � � � � � � �
