Let's get back to work !.... :)
Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] > From: "Josh Reynolds" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, April 4, 2016 1:39:52 PM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [ot] battleship engineering > Faisal, you're really ruining all my fun today. I haven't had enough bourbon > for > this discussion. > On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Faisal Imtiaz < [email protected] > > wrote: >> Aren't they all connected ? >> You are presenting a technical argument, which does not match up to factual >> data >> from the field is put next to it... >> The comment about war and profiteering was in reply to your comment regarding >> 'all life '. >> Regards >> Faisal Imtiaz >> Snappy Internet & Telecom >> 7266 SW 48 Street >> Miami, FL 33155 >> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] >>> From: "Josh Reynolds" < [email protected] > >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Monday, April 4, 2016 1:06:52 PM >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [ot] battleship engineering >>> There's quite a bit of strawmen in your post Faisal. We went from talking >>> about >>> weapons systems to civilian casualties, and then when the points about the >>> strides made in minimizing civilian casualties was brought up, you turned it >>> from there to a political and philosophical rant on the nature of warfare >>> and >>> those who profit. >>> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Faisal Imtiaz < [email protected] > >>> wrote: >>>> Yes, yes, yes... you can make any argument you like, it is easy to justify >>>> the >>>> weapons and their efficiency on a relative scale... >>>> However, if you take into account the views from the other side, on the >>>> ground >>>> and a dose of reality.... even the most sane person has to rethink the >>>> argument... >>>> this is just one example of what I am talking about..... >>>> http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/09/25/national/drones-terrorising-pakistan-civilians-experts/ >>>> (read the expert opinion.... and ask yourself the question of who were, >>>> are the >>>> other 98% killed ) >>>> And when these nut cases come back and kill kids in schools as a >>>> retaliation... >>>> the folks there pay the price, again for so called 'precision bombs'. >>>>> If you want to make an argument that all life is precious, I disagree - >>>>> there >>>>> are some individuals out there that the world would be better off had >>>>> they not >>>>> been born... a lot of them, sadly. It is tragic when non-coms get caught >>>>> in the >>>> > crossfire. >>>> Ok, lets go with this argument, the question is who is going the be judge >>>> and >>>> jury for them ? Whose laws are you going to judge someone by, ours ? >>>> Theirs ? >>>> .... >>>> If we are so right and correct in everything we do ....Then why is it that >>>> we >>>> simply cannot allow open public trial of the detainees in Guantanamo ? >>>> War is a dirty business, everyone looses .... except for those who profit >>>> from >>>> it ! >>>> Faisal Imtiaz >>>> Snappy Internet & Telecom >>>> 7266 SW 48 Street >>>> Miami, FL 33155 >>>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >>>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] >>>>> From: "Josh Reynolds" < [email protected] > >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 4, 2016 11:35:58 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [ot] battleship engineering >>>>> " The point is, modern fighting machines are much more destructive, and >>>>> are >>>>> indiscriminate killing machines .. they don't know the difference between >>>>> solders and civilians... It might be sexy to talk about their destructive >>>>> power, but one has to realize that destructive power is far more reaching >>>>> to >>>>> human beings....... and this is why we don't officially keep track of >>>>> civilian >>>>> deaths.... >>>>> " >>>>> Indiscriminate killing machines, yes. Always have been, and likely always >>>>> will >>>>> be. More destructive? Not necessarily. The initial Call For Fire for >>>>> artillery >>>>> given a map and compass has a "mean error" of 500m. It's still just as >>>>> bad now >>>>> as it was during World War I, maybe with slightly better numbers due to >>>>> better >>>>> mapping data. Fire a single Excalibur round out of one of the said >>>>> artillery >>>>> pieces however, and you can place the round inside a window multiple >>>>> stories >>>>> off the ground floor and even have a good understanding of possible >>>>> building >>>>> and collateral damage before the round is ever fired. >>>>> Which one would you rather fire in a city? >>>>> The same goes for carpet bombing. It's vastly fallen out of favor due to >>>>> it's >>>>> expense and mass damage, and the fact that for point targets a single >>>>> 500-2000lb JDAM can have the precise effect. For moving targets, they now >>>>> have >>>>> laser guided JDAMS - GPS until near target, then switches to IR tracker. >>>>> This >>>>> means you're much more likely to have positive effects on target (EOT) >>>>> than >>>>> using a shotgun approach. >>>>> Basically, CEP (Circular Error of Probability) went from 500m to single >>>>> digit >>>>> meters to centimeters now, depending on the weapons system. Understanding >>>>> of >>>>> collateral damage (persons / structures) is also much better. >>>>> TLDR: Yes, we have some weapons systems capable of massive destruction. >>>>> We've >>>>> also come a long way in creating systems that have outstanding accuracy to >>>>> lower round expenditures, create positive EOT, and minimize civilian and >>>>> structural casualties. >>>>> If you want to make an argument that all life is precious, I disagree - >>>>> there >>>>> are some individuals out there that the world would be better off had >>>>> they not >>>>> been born... a lot of them, sadly. It is tragic when non-coms get caught >>>>> in the >>>>> crossfire. >>>>> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Faisal Imtiaz < [email protected] >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >> Perspective is a powerful thing. >>>>>> Agreed.. >>>>>>>>. Not as high as the loss of life would have been if we were running at >>>>>>>>one >>>>>>>>another with swords and bows, not as high as lining up in front of one >>>>>>>>another >>>>>>>>taking turns to load and shoot, and not as high as it would be had we >>>>>>>>been >>>>>>>>forced from our trenches into the waiting maw of the enemy with the >>>>>>>>dull smell >>>>>> >>of onions in the air behind us. >>>>>> Hmm... opinion based on which account one has read... Most of those >>>>>> battles >>>>>> ended in one day or within a short amount of time, the battle field was >>>>>> always >>>>>> contained .... to soldiers. >>>>>> The point is, modern fighting machines are much more destructive, and are >>>>>> indiscriminate killing machines .. they don't know the difference between >>>>>> solders and civilians... It might be sexy to talk about their destructive >>>>>> power, but one has to realize that destructive power is far more >>>>>> reaching to >>>>>> human beings....... and this is why we don't officially keep track of >>>>>> civilian >>>>>> deaths.... >>>>>> Faisal Imtiaz >>>>>>> From: "Josh Reynolds" < [email protected] > >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 4, 2016 10:03:07 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [ot] battleship engineering >>>>>>> Not as high as the loss of life would have been if we were running at >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> another with swords and bows, not as high as lining up in front of one >>>>>>> another >>>>>>> taking turns to load and shoot, and not as high as it would be had we >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> forced from our trenches into the waiting maw of the enemy with the >>>>>>> dull smell >>>>>>> of onions in the air behind us. >>>>>>> Citizens of London, Stalingrad, Berlin, Nagasaki and Hiroshima would >>>>>>> appreciate >>>>>>> how "civilized" we have become from a certain point of view. >>>>>>> Citizens of cities who have been invaded by ISIS/ISIL... Probably not >>>>>>> so much. >>>>>>> Perspective is a powerful thing. >>>>>>> On Apr 4, 2016 8:09 AM, "Faisal Imtiaz" < [email protected] > >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> No offense meant to anyone.... >>>>>>>> But let me ask you one question:- >>>>>>>> What was the cost in human lives paid for that adventure ? >>>>>>>> (Both sides, good, bad, ugly...... human cost ?) >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Faisal Imtiaz >>>>>>>>> From: "David Milholen" < [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 4, 2016 8:24:36 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [ot] battleship engineering >>>>>>>>> I got to sit between two units on my M1A1 tank that had a fire >>>>>>>>> mission into >>>>>>>>> Kuwait and Iraq. >>>>>>>>> The unit I called the BIg Ear sat up on the forward berm to identify >>>>>>>>> targets of >>>>>>>>> opportunity. >>>>>>>>> These so called targets were other artillery that were firing on its >>>>>>>>> own troops >>>>>>>>> for desertion. >>>>>>>>> By late evening the star clusters that littered the sky soon died >>>>>>>>> down to one or >>>>>>>>> two after the MRLS missions were done. >>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2016 12:11 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote: >>>>>>>>>> My dream fire mission was MLRS :) >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2016 10:23 PM, "Cameron Crum" < [email protected] > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I'm all for precision guided munitions, but nothing says we've come >>>>>>>>>>> to kick some >>>>>>>>>>> ass like shelling an enemy position with the 16in guns from a >>>>>>>>>>> battleship. Talk >>>>>>>>>>> about demoralizing the enemy. >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Josh Reynolds < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Systems like that don't exist so much... At least, there are no >>>>>>>>>>>> guns of that >>>>>>>>>>>> size on a battleship that I'm aware of (16"). >>>>>>>>>>>> I know there are much smaller systems now for certain classes of >>>>>>>>>>>> warships. When >>>>>>>>>>>> I was going through my joint fires naval training we talked about >>>>>>>>>>>> a bunch of >>>>>>>>>>>> systems (that are now public knowledge). One of the newer naval >>>>>>>>>>>> guns has a 40+ >>>>>>>>>>>> nautical mile range and GPS guided round - similar to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Excalibur artillery >>>>>>>>>>>> round. Those are mostly automated systems. >>>>>>>>>>>> If I remember right, a full battery salvo from an Iowa class >>>>>>>>>>>> battleship on a >>>>>>>>>>>> surface target could spread out the round impact locations to >>>>>>>>>>>> create a 1Km x >>>>>>>>>>>> 1Km "casualty box". I always wanted the opportunity to employ that >>>>>>>>>>>> system :P >>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2016 10:23 AM, "David Milholen" < [email protected] > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> What an AWEsome piece of history. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder how many of those systems are completely automated and >>>>>>>>>>>>> how much faster >>>>>>>>>>>>> reload time is ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2016 1:59 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/_wT1xkRpCKk I love this stuff. >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> --
