Meatball Engineering, or Bush Mechanics .... are perfectly fine, until they start being contrary to actual physics.
Unless you are re-defining and challenging physics .. which would be a whole different conversation :) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom http://www.snappytelecom.net Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net > From: "Rory Conaway" <r...@triadwireless.net> > To: af@afmug.com > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 11:52:36 PM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 > I eliminate as many variables as possible and considering how much different > equipment I have to deal with and the time I have to deal with it, I think our > methodology of Meatball engineering has been pretty solid. > Rory > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 9:50 PM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 > >> I’ll stand by the conclusion based on our experience. > I am not countering your conclusion based on your experience. > I am suggesting that you look a bit more under the surface to determine the > coarse parameters which are the actual cause for your experience and > observation. > (and not just the mere freq /band ) > Regards > Faisal Imtiaz > Snappy Internet & Telecom > http://www.snappytelecom.net > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 > Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net >> From: "Rory Conaway" < r...@triadwireless.net > >> To: af@afmug.com >> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 11:40:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >> Yea, next time I do a White Paper, I’ll let you know. The reality is that >> few of >> us have the time to do a full engineering analysis so we extrapolate from the >> information we have. I’ll stand by the conclusion based on our experience. >> Rory >> From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz >> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 9:27 PM >> To: af@afmug.com >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >> if you want to understand the science behind it .. here is an excellent paper >> discussing all aspects ... >> https://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet70/oet70a.pdf >> The reason I called your observation anecdotal because a lot of key important >> information is missing from your statement, and there is a lot of 'assumed' / >> presumed information left to the readers imagination. >> Let me try to explain it further .. You are comparing to radios of different >> bands, with different TX powers, Different RX Gain Antennas, on two links, >> without any confirmation of your signal levels, rain fade loss, alignment, >> actual modulation drop etc etc etc .. and you are making a statement that >> higher freq is more stable at a shorter link than a lower freq on a longer >> link >> (which by itself as a general statement would be true, however you are >> expounding it by stretching both freq links to be of a size that will be >> affected by Rain Fade, regardless). >> Now if you were to actually look and understand the science behind it all, >> you >> will quickly find that your observation is in direct conflict of actual >> science, for the two links your are actually comparing.. Thus leading to a >> logical conclusion that in your observation, there is some other factor (such >> as the ones I mentioned above) must be creating the observed behavior. (and >> we >> are not even going to into the discussion of 'rain drop size, density, and >> even >> spread across any particular region). >> Thus , I refer to your observation as being anecdotal ! :) >> :) >> Faisal Imtiaz >> Snappy Internet & Telecom >> http://www.snappytelecom.net >> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net >>> From: "Rory Conaway" < r...@triadwireless.net > >>> To: af@afmug.com >>> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 6:51:34 PM >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >>> What are you talking about, anecdotal? I’ll provide more complete >>> information >>> for you then. >>> I’ve got 5 AF24 links in the same area with varying distances from 800’ >>> (although that one was replaced with a B5-Lite last year) to 2.47 miles. The >>> only one that goes down is the 2.47 mile link and even then it’s about >>> twice a >>> year for about 20 minutes during monsoon season. I think I have some pretty >>> objective data since they are all within 3 miles. I don’t have a 2.5 mile >>> 80GHz >>> link in that area so no effort was made to compare. The 2 mile link on this >>> particular 5-hop system has not gone down. This has been up for 2 years so >>> we >>> have 2 summers of monsoon data. >>> Rory >>> From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz >>> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 1:46 PM >>> To: af@afmug.com >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >>>>> I’ve got an AF24 that will drop at 2.5 miles for about an hour a year. >>>>> I’ve got >>> >> a 39GHz link at 2 miles that seems pretty solid also >>> This is exactly the type of anecdotal observations that I made reference to >>> earlier :) >>> Regards. >>> Faisal Imtiaz >>> Snappy Internet & Telecom >>> http://www.snappytelecom.net >>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net >>>> From: "Rory Conaway" < r...@triadwireless.net > >>>> To: af@afmug.com >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 2:02:53 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >>>> I’m in Southern Arizona so heavy rain is pretty brief but also why I’m >>>> asking >>>> the question. I’ve got an AF24 that will drop at 2.5 miles for about an >>>> hour a >>>> year. I’ve got a 39GHz link at 2 miles that seems pretty solid also but I’m >>>> open to using that at 3.5 if that has a better chance too. >>>> Rory >>>> From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:07 AM >>>> To: af@afmug.com >>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >>>> Trango's initial 24 GHz radio could do that. >>>> ----- >>>> Mike Hammett >>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>> Midwest Internet Exchange >>>> The Brothers WISP >>>> From: "Mathew Howard" < mhoward...@gmail.com > >>>> To: "af" < af@afmug.com > >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 12:04:15 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >>>> This is the first I've heard of adaptive channel sizes... I've been >>>> looking at >>>> both Siklu and Bridgewater, and nobody from either company ever mentioned >>>> that >>>> (that doesn't necessarily mean they can't do it though). >>>> On Jan 20, 2018 11:58 AM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: >>>> Adaptive channel sizes? >>>> ----- >>>> Mike Hammett >>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>> Midwest Internet Exchange >>>> The Brothers WISP >>>> From: "Eric Kuhnke" < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > >>>> To: af@afmug.com >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 11:48:24 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >>>> This is not extremely new in 80 GHz, just with different and denser >>>> modulations. >>>> The Siklu 80 GHz stuff has done adaptive coding and modulation for a >>>> while. The >>>> (now 7 year old!) Bridgewave adaptrate 80 GHz stuff would maintain a 100 >>>> Mbps >>>> link during a rain fade, by switching a nominally QPSK-modulated 1500 MHz >>>> wide >>>> channel for 1 Gbps, temporarily down to BPSK during a rain fade event. >>>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Stefan Englhardt < s...@genias.net > >>>> wrote: >>>>> Some vendors do some new things to stretch the range of 80GHz: >>>>> http://de.nec.com/de_DE/global/prod/nw/pasolink/products/ipasolinkEX_advanced.html >>>>> ? >>>>> They modulate down and then reduce channel size. >>>>> This gear is in the 20kEuro Range … >>>>> Von: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] Im Auftrag von Faisal Imtiaz >>>>> Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 17:08 >>>>> An: af@afmug.com >>>>> Betreff: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >>>>> We have two things to contend with... >>>>> one is Oxygen Absorption >>>>> second is Rain Fade >>>>> Science says, 24ghz has much less O2 absorption fade vs 80ghz >>>>> Science also says that 24ghz has slightly less Rain fade vs 80ghz >>>>> Science also says that if on a particular link, if one is comparing 24ghz >>>>> vs >>>>> 80ghz, the difference in which link drops first will be based on the TX >>>>> power / >>>>> Antenna Gain and Rx sensitivity. >>>>> If all things were exactly the same, then 80ghz would drop before 24ghz >>>>> in Rain >>>>> event. >>>>> But in reality, all things are not the same.. I believe 80ghz one is >>>>> allowed >>>>> more power, and higher antenna gain. >>>>> https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86 >>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-fall-siklu-overbuilds-distance-claims-david-theodore >>>>> at 3.5miles, one is pushing the limits of both 24gzh as well as 80ghz.. >>>>> Depending on what you are trying to achieve, and the rainzone, you can >>>>> make >>>>> your choice based on what will perform better normally... cause both of >>>>> them >>>>> will go out in rain :) >>>>> Best of Luck >>>>> Faisal Imtiaz >>>>> Snappy Internet & Telecom >>>>> http://www.snappytelecom.net >>>>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >>>>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net >>>>>> From: "Mathew Howard" < mhoward...@gmail.com > >>>>>> To: "af" < af@afmug.com > >>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:42:31 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Quick comparison between 80GHz and AF24 >>>>>> I'd guess 24ghz would be slightly better, but either one is going to >>>>>> drop at >>>>>> that distance if you ever get heavy rain. >>>>>> Somebody from Siklu told me at one time, that some of their customers >>>>>> have told >>>>>> then that their rainfade is slightly better than an AF24, but slightly >>>>>> worse >>>>>> than an AF24HD... how accurate that is, I don't know. >>>>>> On Jan 19, 2018 6:03 PM, "Rory Conaway" < r...@triadwireless.net > wrote: >>>>>>> I haven’t run the numbers so please save me some time. Which one has >>>>>>> less fade >>>>>>> margin at 3.5 miles? I was going to use Siklu with a 2’ antenna. >>>>>>> Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO >>>>>>> 4226 S. 37 th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040 >>>>>>> 602-426-0542 >>>>>>> r...@triadwireless.net >>>>>>> www.triadwireless.net >>>>>>> “"Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough >>>>>>> features >>>>>>> yet." — Scott Adams
