And the cpes are very cheap...

On Feb 13, 2018 2:58 AM, "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net> wrote:

> At the moment I would wait to see what this LTU is all about. Should soon
> arrive at US Beta store. An airfiber class radio mounted to horns may give
> a real boost. There would be a lot capacity even using them at smaller
> Channels. They will use power below 10W and will be much cheaper than 450m
> so you could install a 360 degree cluster which you might densify at the
> direction where most customers live. Using an EP-S16 you could aggregate
> them to 10GE and feed them with a Licensed gear right up there. You only
> need to bring 48V DC up to the tower.
>
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] Im Auftrag von Josh Reynolds
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. Februar 2018 09:34
> > An: af@afmug.com
> > Betreff: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> >
> > I agree, it makes sense if you already have a cambium network on 450.
> >
> > For greenfield? Probably not.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:42 AM, George Skorup
> > <george.sko...@cbcast.com> wrote:
> > > One 450m = two 450i in cost (roughly), but delivers 3-4x the
> > > throughput based on real-world results. Yes, it *can* talk to 7 SMs in
> the
> > same frame.
> > > But even Cambium said 3-4 is realistic. Maybe 5 in the right
> > > conditions. And you don't have to visit a single customer site. And
> > > instead of pointing 3x 20MHz channels the same direction, you need
> > > only one. Plus there's 30 and 40MHz support. Like Sean said, just
> another
> > tool in the toolbox.
> > >
> > > On 2/13/2018 1:26 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I was saying one direction IS 90 degrees in the "standard tower plan"
> > >> :)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:17 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> how else would you suggest building a tower?!?!
> > >>>
> > >>> friends don't let friends use omni's ;-)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:15 AM, Josh Reynolds
> > >>> <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you do the standard 4xAP so you can do 2 channels and back to
> > >>>> back frequency reuse, 90 degrees is one direction...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:12 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> actually you don't want them all in one direction, you want the
> > >>>>> clients evenly spread in a 90* swath so that you can take
> > >>>>> advantage of the MU-MIMO.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> we have clients connected out to 8 miles running in 6x (which is
> > >>>>> 64qam).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> it actually saves on tower rent because to do the same thing with
> > >>>>> regular
> > >>>>> 450 APs (which we were prior to deploying the 450m's) you would
> > >>>>> need 3 APs each using 20Mhz so 60Mhz total of spectrum used.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> win, win, win.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> but i also wouldn't install them at every tower.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 2 cents
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -sean
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:58 PM, Josh Reynolds
> > >>>>> <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I'm just saying it doesn't make sense, unless all your clients
> > >>>>>> are short range, in all one direction, and tower rent is costly.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> It's a niche of a niche.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> (I'm not saying it is a bad product, I'm not saying that at all,
> > >>>>>> I'm just saying it's not the second coming like people make it
> > >>>>>> out to be.)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:55 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Then by all means don’t deploy any 450m’s josh.  Geeze dude take
> > >>>>>>> a chill pill.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I’m just stating what I have on my network in a real world
> > >>>>>>> environment, earning me real world dollars and conserving much
> > >>>>>>> needed spectrum.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> It’s not the right tool for every situation, BUT under the right
> > >>>>>>> conditions the 450m delivers.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Cheers bud
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -sean
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM Josh Reynolds
> > >>>>>>> <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Further note: You can see I did those calcs at 1024QAM, so
> > >>>>>>>> reduce that down the 256QAM for closer to real numbers :)
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Josh Reynolds
> > >>>>>>>> <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Let's break this down a bit.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi
> anymore?
> > >>>>>>>>> *shakes head*
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread
> > >>>>>>>>> apart (physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into
> > >>>>>>>>> almost the same timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one
> > >>>>>>>>> client that ends up in the same window as other clients
> > >>>>>>>>> reduces the overall capacity of the AP (like in many other
> > >>>>>>>>> situations). It can, in some situations, lead to cumulative
> > >>>>>>>>> transfer windows where overall throughput ends up getting
> > >>>>>>>>> reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up
> > >>>>>>>>> taking a hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of
> > >>>>>>>>> MU-MIMO, not even taking into account "massive" systems like
> > >>>>>>>>> 14x14 that end up costing quite a bit in overall power budget
> > >>>>>>>>> due to the number of elements, further meaning that your range
> > >>>>>>>>> is severely limited in a system like this... so only decent in
> > >>>>>>>>> very dense situations.
> > >>>>>>>>> That's a
> > >>>>>>>>> unique niche.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern
> > >>>>>>>>> system (450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> 30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually
> > >>>>>>>>> streaming.
> > >>>>>>>>> Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps
> > >>>>>>>>> for gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets
> > >>>>>>>>> sent in most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not
> continuous.
> > >>>>>>>>> Let's
> > >>>>>>>>> take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's
> > >>>>>>>>> assume that maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something
> > >>>>>>>>> like that, and that's probably a generous number. 56
> > >>>>>>>>> customers. So 56 customers x 8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz
> > >>>>>>>>> channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to work out!
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Soo.... 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very
> > >>>>>>>>> roughly.
> > >>>>>>>>> If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an
> > >>>>>>>>> 80/20
> > >>>>>>>>> and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> 80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
> > >>>>>>>>> 60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20
> > >>>>>>>>> camp, giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect
> > >>>>>>>>> conditions, gives you
> > >>>>>>>>> 3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p
> > streaming.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> That's a very expensive platform for that kind of throughput
> > >>>>>>>>> and subscriber count with such limitations in range and needed
> > >>>>>>>>> a "perfect storm" of client distribution and data patterns to
> > >>>>>>>>> really take advantage of. With working GPS in all modern
> > >>>>>>>>> platforms, I would be hard pressed to not use an additional
> > >>>>>>>>> 20mhz channel if available, or just cut the channel width in
> > >>>>>>>>> half to 10MHz each, and put up 4 Mimosas or 4 Gen2 Prism
> > >>>>>>>>> radios and have far more than 4x the possible subscriber
> > >>>>>>>>> account, improved tx/rx efficiency, improved range (increasing
> > >>>>>>>>> distance and SNR in many situations), and greatly reduced
> > >>>>>>>>> cost.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Again, I'm far more excited about the 4x increase in spectral
> > >>>>>>>>> efficiency via OFDMA that doesn't cause you to cut down on
> > >>>>>>>>> tx/rx chains for multi-client transmission (costing your
> > >>>>>>>>> range, per client snr, and per-client throughput in the
> > >>>>>>>>> process). MU-MIMO is and will always be a niche hack that
> > >>>>>>>>> never lived up to what was promised.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Sean Heskett
> > >>>>>>>>> <af...@zirkel.us>
> > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Being able to load a 450m AP with 80 subs and deliver 30mbps
> > >>>>>>>>>> service to all of them at peak Netflix time in a 20mhz
> > >>>>>>>>>> channel without breaking a sweat is worth every penny.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> But it’s one tool in the tool box and isn’t the best solution
> > >>>>>>>>>> for every deployment.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> 2 cents
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> -sean
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:32 PM Josh Reynolds
> > >>>>>>>>>> <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> The more I dig into MU-MIMO, the more I realize it's not all
> > >>>>>>>>>>> that great.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I am far more excited by the 9 client simultaneous
> > >>>>>>>>>>> transmissions in 802.11ax via OFDMA.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Moffett
> > >>>>>>>>>>> <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> 450 still does a few things that ePMP doesn't.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Plus there's that 14 chain MU-MIMO thing......ePMP will
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> probably never have something like that.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> UI is still sluggish on ePMP.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand ePMP has gotten so many feature
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> improvements over these past few years that it's gotten
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> really hard to argue with the value it provides.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: af@afmug.com
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/12/2018 8:27:56 PM
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> sell to those 25?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Packetflux GPS sync.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Joe Novak
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: af@afmug.com
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> way since the early days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> deployed. A lot of people are having weird GPS situations
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> come up with the on-board GPS, we have this problem once in
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> a while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> That is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> assuming density isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> don't exactly have enough experience with it. Most of our
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> APs are sitting right around
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> 25
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> customers, and according to airtime we still have quite a
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> bit of room.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <losguyswirel...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> AFx5s...On Rockets and Powerbeams I choose one frequency
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and shut off the rest on APs and on PowerBeams I only use
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> two...this method has worked well since August of
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2017
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when I replaced all the radios on this network and have
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> had to change them since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and work with us on issues.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> other one from El Paso uses my services once in a while
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and works with us as well.  Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> units around Fabens but still no issues. I used larger
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaime Solorza
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza"
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <losguyswirel...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> away...all other radios within 4 mile radius...
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaime Solorza
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"
> > <ch...@wbmfg.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All on the same tower, right?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Jaime Solorza
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Animal Farm
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GHz
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> APs
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues...
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaime Solorza
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"
> > <ch...@wbmfg.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.
> He
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5.5
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X
> > to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> points
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peacefully
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coexist on a tower?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> home
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> routers.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>
> > >
>
>

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