Mike Tintner once challenged me to show how a closed program could compute any kind of typography character. Even though this wasn't a valid AI question (an AI program has to be open to input and we human beings cannot invent every variation of a thing) I came up with a thought experiment to show how it could be done. If you just wrote a program that made incremental changes in a simple generator formula the program could hypothetically get stuck on a few trivial changes and never show that it was capable of any real variability. So I had to come up with a way to make sure that it somehow implemented a lot of variability. Mike was not impressed and I don't think anyone else was either. However, my effort to respond to the challenge helped me to discover something new. This "new" thing that I discovered was not very important because it only described something that we often see in programs that are more flexible. But if you leave this insight out of a generator program, your program would tend to be insipid or narrow.
In the same way Ben's non-topical intervention into my soliloquy was made at just the right time. It turned out that I had been making a simple error in approaching the SAT problem which I hadn't seen until just before Ben made his personal criticism. My most recent insight isn't very interesting because it is just something that makes a lot of sense, but I hadn't seen it because I got so entangled up with the problem. To put it another way, you can't solve a problem by avoiding it. And at this point in history, you won't find a solution in polynomial time by trying to avoid working with solutions that are in non-polynomial time. Jim Bromer On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Mike Archbold via AGI <[email protected]> wrote: > It seems like compression is at the heart of any AI method, or even > any computer method. The best programs are small (physically). I'm > not sure you can disentangle compression from generalization. > > On 6/16/14, Ben Goertzel via AGI <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hmm...well, some folks believe one could create a future upload of a > > physically deceased human via analysis of their online texts... remember > > Giulio Prisco's idea of Mind Uploading via Gmail... > > > > http://giulioprisco.blogspot.hk/2010/09/mind-uploading-via-gmail.html > > > > Maybe, post-Singularity, Jim Bromer's upload will find a polynomial time > > solution to 3SAT? > > > > > > ;-) > > ben > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Anastasios Tsiolakidis < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Shame on you Ben, again! He Creative Commons licensed his mind, that's > >> why. > >> > >> AT > >> > >> On 16.06.2014, at 14:52, "Ben Goertzel via AGI" <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> I wonder why you enjoy talking to yourself on a public email list? ;-) > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Jim Bromer via AGI <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I am probably wrong. The solution to finding a solution to a logical > >>> satisfiability problem in polynomial time is probably going to be based > >>> on > >>> a natural solution that does an accounting of the number of solutions > to > >>> the logical problem. > >>> > >>> Jim Bromer > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Traditional logic is a compressed format. Since there are so many > >>>> possible equivalences we know that logic is not a perfectly packed > >>>> compression method. So there is no need for a list of alternative > >>>> compression conversion algorithms which were in a list of possible > >>>> algorithms that was in np. (I expressed that idea incorrectly. I > should > >>>> have talked about a list of possible algorithms which were in exp > space > >>>> or > >>>> something like that. If the list of possible compression-conversion > >>>> algorithms were in np then that implies that finding an algorithm > >>>> solution > >>>> might itself be in np.) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Jim Bromer > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> >> Of course I have no idea if this is even possible. But my next > >>>>> question is whether the inclusion of the compression formatting with > >>>>> the > >>>>> compressed string is inherently too inefficient to be useful.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Presuming that different classes of logical formulas could be > >>>>> compressed in different ways, is it possible to use a single > >>>>> polynomial > >>>>> time algorithm to do this? It might be possible, for example, using a > >>>>> numerical method to choose an algorithm based on a numbering system > >>>>> (where > >>>>> an ordering of algorithms might, to continue with this conjectural > >>>>> example, > >>>>> be associated with a log-based number - an n-ary number - to choose > >>>>> the > >>>>> algorithm from a system of algorithms which are in their entirety in > >>>>> np). > >>>>> This is too complicated for me, but if the parts of the algorithms > >>>>> were > >>>>> ordered and enumerated then large numbers could be used to refer to a > >>>>> particular ordering scheme. I am just trying to establish that there > >>>>> could > >>>>> be a way to express variations in how a compression conversion method > >>>>> might > >>>>> be chosen even if the entire list of algorithms were themselves in > np. > >>>>> > >>>>> But, is a compression method which includes some way to describe or > >>>>> refer to the particular compression scheme used in the compression > >>>>> going to > >>>>> be so much less efficient than a system that leaves that kind of > >>>>> information out to make this whole idea theoretically impossible? I > >>>>> think > >>>>> that it is theoretically possible. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Jim Bromer > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Jim Bromer > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I have spent some time looking at the problem of finding a > >>>>>>> polynomial > >>>>>>> time solution to logical satisfiability and I have come to a few > >>>>>>> conclusions about the problem. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> There may be a natural solution, but if there is, I certainly can't > >>>>>>> see it. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So if this is at all feasible, a more contrived method needs to be > >>>>>>> concocted. I believe the solution would have to use an alternative > >>>>>>> way to > >>>>>>> compress a logical problem so that individual solutions could be > >>>>>>> turned out > >>>>>>> in polynomial time. I can imagine compressing-some- logical > formulas > >>>>>>> that > >>>>>>> way but I can't think of a general method. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But, since it looks like there is no one compression formatting > that > >>>>>>> could be used for every possible logical formula I believe that a > >>>>>>> solution > >>>>>>> - if one is feasible - would have to use different compression > >>>>>>> encryptions > >>>>>>> for different formulas. The formulas, encoded in one of > >>>>>>> these yet-to-be-invented compression formats would probably need to > >>>>>>> contain > >>>>>>> the encoding methods used to explain how they were encoded, since > >>>>>>> different > >>>>>>> formulas (or different classes of formulas) would have to be > >>>>>>> compressed > >>>>>>> differently. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But, then since a part of logical formula that had been partially > >>>>>>> expressed in one of these formats would, using this theoretical > >>>>>>> framework, > >>>>>>> need to be converted into another compression format for the next > >>>>>>> part of > >>>>>>> the formula, that suggests that the compressions would have to be > >>>>>>> converted > >>>>>>> into other compressions without fully decompressing them and this > >>>>>>> compression transformation would have to take place in polynomial > >>>>>>> time. So > >>>>>>> one compressed format would have to be transformable into another > >>>>>>> format as > >>>>>>> the formula was converted in a step by step fashion. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So in conclusion: > >>>>>>> 1. Different classes of logical formulas would have to be converted > >>>>>>> into different compression formats and this compression would have > to > >>>>>>> be > >>>>>>> done efficiently. > >>>>>>> 2. The new compressed formulas would have to be efficiently > readable > >>>>>>> so, in the worse case, individual solutions could be read out > >>>>>>> efficiently. > >>>>>>> 3. The individuated compression formats would have to > >>>>>>> include something about the encoding used for the formatting. > >>>>>>> 4. These formats would have to be convertible into another format > >>>>>>> efficiently in order to process the logical formula in a stepwise > >>>>>>> fashion. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This shows that there are at least 3 different conversion or > >>>>>>> transformation methods necessary for the new individuated > >>>>>>> compression > >>>>>>> methods. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> An initial analysis of the structure of a logical formula might be > >>>>>>> used to immediately convert the formula into a different format > >>>>>>> without > >>>>>>> going through a step by step conversion- reconversion process. But > >>>>>>> even if > >>>>>>> that was possible we would still want to be able to treat logical > >>>>>>> formulas > >>>>>>> in a step by step manner. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Of course I have no idea if this is even possible. But my next > >>>>>>> question is whether the inclusion of the compression formatting > with > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> compressed string is inherently too inefficient to be useful.. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Jim Bromer > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-deec6279> | > >>> Modify > >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > >>> <http://www.listbox.com> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Ben Goertzel, PhD > >> http://goertzel.org > >> > >> "In an insane world, the sane man must appear to be insane". -- Capt. > >> James T. Kirk > >> > >> "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery / None but ourselves can free > >> our > >> minds" -- Robert Nesta Marley > >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/14050631-7d925eb1> | > >> Modify > >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> > >> Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Ben Goertzel, PhD > > http://goertzel.org > > > > "In an insane world, the sane man must appear to be insane". -- Capt. > James > > T. Kirk > > > > "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery / None but ourselves can free > our > > minds" -- Robert Nesta Marley > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > AGI > > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > > RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae > > Modify Your Subscription: > > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-f5817f28 > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
