It is scalable they say. OK, but in how many cognitive categories? Are the neural networks able to use that information for combination and selection at a higher cognitive order? I am asking if they are able to use their capabilities in a creative and imaginative application of knowledge. If you could get a neural network to detect imagination then you might be able to train it to use directed imagination in problem solving. But you can't because imagination is too broad a concept.
Jim Bromer On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 5:51 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: > It is scalable they say. OK, but in how many cognitive dimensions? > (Throwing a term like "cognitive dimensions" out in front of you guys may > be a mistake.) Perhaps I should have asked, in how many cognitive > categories? This has been a persistent problem with neural networks. The > point of view that Chilimbi seems to be taking is that the [parallel] > system is able to detect different features and combine them somehow. > However, that does not mean, for example, that the neural networks are able > to use that information for combination and selection at a higher cognitive > order. Just because I cannot word my criticism in just the right way does > not mean that the criticism is completely invalid. A counter argument is > that since the algorithms are effectively making some kinds of combinations > and some kinds of selections then that proves that they are theoretically > capable of making the kinds of subsequent combinations and selections that > I am thinking of. However, this (kind of) argument still hasn't been > established experimentally. It's the same old same old. > > Jim Bromer > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 12:22 AM, Ben Goertzel via AGI <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> ;) >> >> Hmm.. the quote about quantum physics is >> >> *** >> “It’s like in quantum physics at the beginning of the 20th century,” >> Chilimbi says. “The experimentalists and practitioners were ahead of the >> theoreticians. They couldn’t explain the results. We appear to be at a >> similar stage with DNNs. We’re realizing the power and the capabilities, >> but we still don’t understand the fundamentals of exactly how they work. " >> *** >> >> It is true that with deep learning, practice is way ahead of theory these >> days. OTOH, quantum mechanics has some mysterious confusing-ness too it, >> which deep learning doesn't really have.... What modern DL algorithms are >> doing has made sense conceptually to a lot of people for a long time, and >> the recent breakthrough results are not based so much on new conceptual >> breakthroughs, as on the new availability of massive amounts of hardware >> and associated operational software.... >> >> Still, "solving object recognition via DL" is a fair bit more AGI-ish >> than "solving chess via alpha-beta pruning", for example These DL >> architectures have a strong conceptual resemblance to one aspect of the >> human mind-brain (parts of our visual and auditory cortices), whereas >> alpha-beta pruning has a significantly lesser resemblance to stuff that the >> human mind does (the human mind does some search like that, but on a far >> lesser scale and only in tight interaction with a lot of other >> processes).... >> >> I think these modern DL architectures bear moderately close resemblance >> to something that could serve as a significant component of an AGI system. >> In their details, though, they are not architected for integration with >> other AGI components, unlike how the human visual and auditory cortices, >> with their pronounced hierarchical sensory pattern recognition >> functionality, are architected (well, evolved) for interaction with the >> rest of the brain... >> >> -- Ben >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 9:04 PM, David Hart <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I skimmed it. Is it a joke? DNN like quantum physics? Really? Do they >>> really think the two are in the same league? >>> >>> -dave >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > This time from Microsoft... >>> > >>> > >>> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/news/features/dnnvision-071414.aspx >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Ben Goertzel, PhD >>> > http://goertzel.org >>> > >>> > "In an insane world, the sane man must appear to be insane". -- Capt. >>> James >>> > T. Kirk >>> > >>> > "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery / None but ourselves can free >>> our >>> > minds" -- Robert Nesta Marley >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> David Hart | +852 9559 9580 >>> OpenCog Foundation | http://opencog.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> http://goertzel.org >> >> "In an insane world, the sane man must appear to be insane". -- Capt. >> James T. Kirk >> >> "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery / None but ourselves can free >> our minds" -- Robert Nesta Marley >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-f5817f28> | >> Modify >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >> Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
