Nathan, thank you for the thoughtful reply.
> The problem with religion, no matter how ethically sound it may be, once
> created and accepted as an ideal, immediately creates an elite when a
> particular social organization is considered more preferable than the rest.
> No matter how remarkable the moral basis, it still amounts to potential
> conflict through the creation of an artificial form of ethical inequality.
This is a good point *unless* I manage to suck *everyone* into my particular
social organization. Now, I have lowered my barriers to entry as far as I can
see is compatible with reality and appealing to people's self-interest. In
particular, I am not, not, *NOT*, requiring that people give up their current
religion (which is why most people *MUST* balk at joining a new religion). I
have made it so that it is a goal to recruit as many people as possible. And
I'm hoping that I can reach a critical mass where society and peer pressure
push everybody into it.
Your argument is like saying that it is unfair to discriminate against people
who have been given the option to be American citizens at no cost without
losing any other citizenship and who decline to do so because they don't
believe in the American ideals (as opposed to reality :-) of truth, justice,
and fairness for all. Sorry, but if you decline to act in concert with "truth,
justice, and fairness for all", I most certainly *AM* going to discriminate
against you until you change your tune.
> In this proposal you mention self interest often. I think the concept of
> self-interest is rather distasteful.
Because you have been *taught* to feel that way. Because short-sighted,
unenlightened self-interest most frequently runs counter to ethics. Sort of
like "It is *BAD* to cut people with knives". It's a really good general rule
to keep people out of trouble. But then, you need a surgeon.
(This reminds me of a science fiction story, a Hugo Winner I think, about a
hobo that finds an intelligent knife that is smart enough to perform surgery
and not harm people regardless of the hands that it is in)
> I also think the concept of self is hot air, a fantasy land, something not to
> place too much stock in.
I see your point but the concept *does* give you an awful lot of power to
explain things
> I think it's probably more universally preferred and less harmful to describe
> the interests themselves rather than the ego's (the conceptual self) or the
> organizational ego's (the idea that a group has a face) interpretations of
> the interests at hand.
I agree.
> I think having an ego is okay given it's not taken too seriously. If an ego
> of any kind is taken seriously, division occurs, and when division occurs,
> inequality is more perceivable, and therefore conflict is more likely to
> arise in one form or another against the noted position.
I agree.
> I have some trouble with the concept of Friendliness.
Actually, you are having trouble with what you believe my concept of
Friendliness entails because you are incorrectly guessing about how my
Friendliness would deal with the situation below.
> If I where to have a qualm with a research partner on a certain
> calculation—left unresolved—any "friendliness" exhibited would be insincere
> and passive-aggressive, potentially harmful and conflictive, though people
> behave in this way often as a short term defensive move.
The rule that I've ingrained into my children is "Nice, necessary, or true --
it must be two out of the three or you don't have to (and probably shouldn't)
say/do it" under pain of hearing me repeat the maxim again and yet again until
they are willing to stop. Trust me, you say "Nice, necessary, or true" and
they will wince and complete it for you.
I think that that is a good Friendliness rule and, in your case, going along
with the research partner is neither necessary nor true.
= = = = =
Can I convince you to convert now?
On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Actually, the same solution as last time -- just massively rephrased.
(Note: This is again a double-post because I think that it is *so* completely
different and I apologize to those receiving duplicates)
= = = = = = = = = =
Hi. I'm Mark Waser and I would like to introduce you to a new religion.
This religion has changed my life. It has given me new power to direct my
life and has dramatically increased my happiness. I believe that it can do the
same thing for you.
This religion is very easy to practice, never conflicts with your own
personal self-interest, and even allows you to keep your current religion.
To join this religion requires only two simple things:
a.. To declare that you are a member of this religion AND
b.. To act like you are a member of this religion
This religion has only five fundamental beliefs:
a.. You should not interfere with other people unless it is in your TRUE
self-interest to do so
b.. Interfering with other people SOLELY for personal enjoyment, money,
power, or other similar things that people compete for is NOT in your true
self-interest
c.. Because everyone can make mistakes, it is NOT in your true
self-interest to interfere with other people SOLELY because *you* believe that
it is in *their* self-interest that you do so (because people *should* be
allowed to make their own mistakes)
d.. Because everyone has different beliefs about whether God exists or
what God wants (and you could therefore be wrong), it is NOT in your true
self-interest to interfere with other people SOLELY because of what you believe
that God wants
e.. It is in everyone's best interest to spread this religion
The name of this religion is *Friendliness* (or, it can be referred to as
the Friendly religion). Members of this religion are called
Friendly/Friendlies.
I am a member and would very much like to talk to you further about this
religion if you are interested.
Thank you *very* much for your time and attention.
= = = = = = = = = =
Vision/Slogan -- Friendliness: The Ice-9 of Ethics and Ultimate in
Self-Interest
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