Yes ok, this is needed, but was a bit different than what was being discussed earlier, thank you for the clarification.
_______________________________________ James Ratcliff - http://falazar.com Looking for something... --- On Wed, 7/30/08, Brad Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: Brad Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [agi] How do we know we don't know? To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 3:47 PM James, Someone ventured the *opinion* that keeping such a list of "things I don't know" was "nonsensical," but I have yet to see any evidence or well-reasoned argument backing that opinion. So, it's just an opinion. One with which I, obviously, do not agree. There are two "stages" of "not knowing." The first is when the agent doesn't know it doesn't know something. It's clueless. This can be such a dangerous stage to be in that one can imagine the agent might be equipped with a "knee-jerk" type reaction, which evinces itself in a variety of ways. One of those ways could be to promote this thing it didn't know it didn't know to the next stage of "not knowing" by storing it (subconsciously, most likely) in a list of "things I know I don't know." I use the term "list" generically. I don't argue that the human brain maintains knowledge in list structures or that this would necessarily be the way this information is stored in an AGI agent). I fail to see how saving this type of information in memory is any different from saving any other type of information. It's a positive fact about the world as that world relates to the individual human (or AGI agent). The first way having such a list might help is in optimizing memory search. The next time the agent encounters a thing not known on this list, it won't have to perform an exhaustive search of things it knows to come to the "feeling of not knowing." It's right there on the (comparatively short) list of things it doesn't know (which would be searched first, of course). In addition, if the agent's experience in the world results in repeated hits on a particular item in this list, this could be a factor in producing the desire to learn that is such a characteristic behavior of our species. Once the thing is known, it is, of course, removed from the "not known" list. If a thing on the list is not encountered again for a long period of time, it might just fall off the list. Both of these characteristics of such a list would work, subconsciously, to keep the list both small and relevant. Cheers, Brad James Ratcliff wrote: > Sure, > search is at the root of all processing, be it human or AI. > > How we each go about the search, and how efficient we are at the task > are different, and what exactly we are searching for, and exponential > explosion. > > But some type of search is done, whether we are consciously aware of our > brains doing the search or not. > > Given a bit of context information about the question should allow us to > use some heuristics to look at a smaller area of knowledge bases in our > brains, or in a computer's memory. > > Having a list of "things we dont know" is nonsensical as has been > pointed out, when it comes to individual terms, but something like a > aggregate estimate of knowledge known could be computed. > > I myself know a little about baseball .... say 10%, but baseball history > and world series statistics would be more like 0.1% > > James Ratcliff > > --- On *Tue, 7/29/08, Brad Paulsen /<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: > > James, > > So, you agree that some sort of search must take place before the "feeling > of not knowing" presents itself? Of course, "realizing we don't > have a lot of information" results from some type of a search and not a separate process > (at least you didn't posit any). > > Thanks for your comments! > Cheers > Brad > > James Ratcliff wrote: > > It is fairly simple at that point, we have enough context to have a very > > limited domain > > world series - baseball > > 1924 > > answer is a team, > > so we can do a lookup in our database easily enough, or realize that we > > really dont have a lot of information about baseball in our mindset. > > > > And for the other one, it would just be a > strait term match. > > > > James Ratcliff > > > > _______________________________________ > > James Ratcliff - http://falazar.com > > Looking for something... > > > > --- On *Mon, 7/28/08, Brad Paulsen /<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* > wrote: > > > > From: Brad Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [agi] How do we know we don't know? > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 4:12 PM > > > > Jim Bromer wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brad Paulsen > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> All, > > >> What does fomlepung mean? > > >> > > >> If your immediate (mental) response was "I don't > know." > > it means you're not > > >> a slang-slinging Norwegian. But, how did your brain produce > that > > > "feeling > > >> of not knowing"? And, how did it produce that feeling > so fast? > > >> > > >> Your brain may have been able to do a massively-parallel > search of > > your > > >> entire memory and > > come up "empty." But, if it does this, > > it's subconscious. > > >> No one to whom I've presented the above question has > reported a > > conscious > > >> "feeling of searching" before having the conscious > feeling > > of not knowing. > > >> > > >> Brad > > > > > > My guess that initial recognition must be based on the surface > > > features of an input. If this is true, then that could suggest > that > > > our initial recognition reactions are stimulated by distinct > > > components (or distinct groupings of components) that are > found > in the > > > surface input data. > > > Jim Bromer > > > > > > > > Hmmm. That particular query may not have been the best example since, > to a > > non-Norwegian speaker, the phonological surface feature of that > statement alone > > > > could account for the "feeling of not knowing." In other > words, the > > word > > "fomlepung" just "doesn't sound right." Good > point. > > But, that may only > > explain > > how we know we don't know "strange sounding" words. > > > > Let's try another example: > > > > Which team won the 1924 World Series? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Brad > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > > agi > > > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > > > RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > > > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > agi > > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > > Modify Your Subscription: > > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | Modify > > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> > > Your Subscription [Powered by Listbox] > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | Modify > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> > Your Subscription [Powered by Listbox] <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=108809214-a0d121 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
