Group selection is not dead, just weaker than individual selection. Altruism in many species is evidence for its existence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection
In any case, evolution of culture and ethics in humans is primarily memetic, not genetic. Taboos against nudity are nearly universal among cultures with language, yet unique to homo sapiens. You might believe that certain practices are intrinsically good or bad, not the result of group selection. Fine. That is how your beliefs are supposed to work. -- Matt Mahoney, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ---- From: Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 1:13:43 PM Subject: Re: AGI goals (was Re: Information theoretic approaches to AGI (was Re: [agi] The Necessity of Embodiment)) "Group selection" (as used as the term of art in evolutionary biology) does not seem to be experimentally supported (and there have been a lot of recent experiments looking for such an effect). It would be nice if people could let the idea drop unless there is actually some proof for it other than "it seems to make sense that . . . . " ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Burton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 12:56 PM Subject: **SPAM** Re: AGI goals (was Re: Information theoretic approaches to AGI (was Re: [agi] The Necessity of Embodiment)) >I remember Richard Dawkins saying that group selection is a lie. Maybe > we shoud look past it now? It seems like a problem. > > On 8/29/08, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> OK. How about this . . . . Ethics is that behavior that, >>>> when shown by you, >>>> makes me believe that I should facilitate your survival. >>>> Obviously, it is >>>> then to your (evolutionary) benefit to behave ethically. >>> >>> Ethics can't be explained simply by examining interactions between >>> individuals. It's an emergent dynamic that requires explanation at the >>> group level. It's a set of culture-wide rules and taboos - how did they >>> get there? >> >> I wasn't explaining ethics with that statement. I was identifying how >> "evolution operates in social groups in such a way that I can derive >> ethics" >> (in direct response to your question). >> >> Ethics is a system. The *definition of ethical behavior* for a given >> group >> is "an emergent dynamic that requires explanation at the group level" >> because it includes what the group believes and values -- but ethics (the >> system) does not require belief history (except insofar as it affects >> current belief). History, circumstances, and understanding what a >> culture >> has the rules and taboos that they have is certainly useful for deriving >> more effective rules and taboos -- but it doesn't alter the underlying >> system which is quite simple . . . . being perceived as helpful generally >> improves your survival chances, being perceived as harmful generally >> decreases your survival chances (unless you are able to overpower the >> effect). >> >>> Really? I must be out of date too then, since I agree with his >>> explanation >>> >>> of ethics. I haven't read Hauser yet though, so maybe you're right. >> >> The specific phrase you cited was "human collectives with certain taboos >> make the group as a whole more likely to persist". The correct term of >> art >> for this is "group selection" and it has pretty much *NOT* been supported >> by >> scientific evidence and has fallen out of favor. >> >> Matt also tends to conflate a number of ideas which should be separate >> which >> you seem to be doing as well. There need to be distinctions between >> ethical >> systems, ethical rules, cultural variables, and evaluations of ethical >> behavior within a specific cultural context (i.e. the results of the >> system >> given certain rules -- which at the first-level seem to be reasonably >> standard -- with certain cultural variables as input). Hauser's work >> identifies some of the common first-level rules and how cultural >> variables >> affect the results of those rules (and the derivation of secondary >> rules). >> It's good detailed, experiment-based stuff rather than the vague >> hand-waving >> that you're getting from armchair philosophers. >> >>> I fail to see how your above explanation is anything but an elaboration >>> of >>> >>> the idea that ethics is due to group selection. The following statements >>> all support it: >>> - "memes [rational or otherwise] when adopted by a group can enhance >>> group >>> >>> survival" >>> - "Ethics is first and foremost what society wants you to do." >>> - "ethics turns into a matter of determining what is the behavior that >>> is >>> best for society" >> >> I think we're stumbling over your use of the term "group selection" and >> what you mean by "ethics is due to group selection". Yes, the group >> "selects" the cultural variables that affect the results of the common >> ethical rules. But "group selection" as a term of art in evolution >> generally meaning that the group itself is being selected or >> co-evolved -- >> in this case, presumably by ethics -- which is *NOT* correct by current >> scientific understanding. The first phrase that you quoted was intended >> to >> point out that both good and bad memes can positively affect survival -- >> so >> co-evolution doesn't work. The second phrase that you quoted deals with >> the >> results of the system applying common ethical rules with cultural >> variables. >> The third phrase that you quoted talks about determining what the best >> cultural variables (and maybe secondary rules) are for a given set of >> circumstances -- and should have been better phrased as "Improving >> ethical >> evaluations turns into a matter of determining . . . 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