Mike If you want an explanation of why I think my AGI system will work, please see
http://opencog.org/wiki/OpenCogPrime:WikiBook The argument is complex and technical and it would not be a good use of my time to recapitulate it via email!! Personally I do think the metaphor COWS FLY LIKE CLOUDS BUT THEY ARE NEVER COMPLETELY SUCCESSFUL works excellently, which is of course another problem with your test of metaphor production: what constitutes a successful or interesting metaphor is very much a matter of taste!! -- Ben On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:05 AM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Ben, > > Not one metaphor below works. > > You have in effect accepted the task of providing a philosophy and > explanation of your AGI and your logic - you have produced a great deal of > such stuff (quite correctly). But none of it includes the slightest > explanation of how logic can produce AGI - or, to use your > favourite metaphor, how the plane will take off. I don't know the history of > the Wright brothers, but I'll confidently bet that they had at least an idea > or two, from early on, of how and why their contraption would fly. They > didn't entirely "wing it." > > Mike, > > I understand that "my task" is to create an AGI system, and I'm working on > it ... > > The fact that my in-development, partial AGI system has not yet > demonstrated advanced intelligence, does not imply that it will not do so > once completed. > > No, my AGI system has not yet discovered surprising metaphors, because it > is still at an early stage of development. So what. An airplane not yet > fully constructed doesn't fly anywhere either. > > My point was that asking whether a certain type of software system has ever > produced a surprising metaphor -- is not a very interesting question. I am > quite sure that the chatbot MegaHAL has produced many surprising metaphors. > For instance, see his utterances on > > http://megahal.alioth.debian.org/Classic.html > > including > > AMAZING GRACE, HOW SWEET THE SOUND OF ONE OR MORE NUMBERS REPRESENTED IN > DIGITAL FORM. > > HAL IS A CRAZY COW WHEN IT SINGS HALLELUJA > > LIFE'S BUT A GREEN DUCK WITH SOY SAUCE > > CHESS IS A FUN SPORT, WHEN PLAYED WITH SHOT GUNS. > > KEN KESEY WROTE "ONE FLEW OVER THE CENTER OF THE CUCKOLDED LIZARD MAN, WHO > STRAYED FROM HIS MISTAKES WHEN HE IS A MADEUP WORD. > > COWS FLY LIKE CLOUDS BUT THEY ARE NEVER COMPLETELY SUCCESSFUL > > JESUS IS THE BEST RADIO PRODUCER IN THE BEANS. > > MegaHAL is kinda creative and poetic, and he does generate some funky and > surprising metaphors ... but alas he is not an AGI... > > -- Ben > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 11:30 PM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > >> >> >> Ben: Mike: >> (And can you provide an example of a single surprising metaphor or analogy >> that have ever been derived logically? Jiri said he could - but didn't.) >> >> >> It's a bad question -- one could derive surprising metaphors or analogies >> by random search, and that wouldn't prove anything useful about the AGI >> potential of random search ... >> >> Ben, >> >> When has random search produced surprising metaphors ? And how did or >> would the system know that it has been done - how would it be able to >> distinguish valid from invalid metaphors, and surprising from unsurprising >> ones? >> >> You have just put forward, I suggest, a hypothetical/false and >> evasive argument. >> >> Your task, as Pei's, is surely to provide an argument, or some evidence, >> as to how the logical system you use can lead in any way to the crossing/ >> connection of previously uncrossed/unconnected domains - the central task >> and problem of AGI. Surprising metaphors and analogies are just two >> examples of such crossing of domains. (And jokes another) >> >> You have effectively tried to argue via the (I suggest) false random >> search example, that it is impossible to provide such an argument.. >> >> The truth is - I'm betting - that, you're just making excuses - neither >> you nor Pei have ever actually proposed an argument as to how logic can >> solve the problem of AGI and, after all these years, simply don't have >> one. If you have or do, please link me. >> >> P.S. The counterargument is v. simple. A connection of domains via >> metaphor/analogy or any other means is surprising if it does not follow from >> any known premises and rules. There were no known premises and rules for >> Matt to connect altimeters and the measurement of progress, or, if you >> remember my visual pun, for connecting the head of a clarinet and the head >> of a swan. Logic depends on inferences from known premises and rules. Logic >> is therefore quite incapable of - and has always been expressly prohibited >> from - making surprising connections (and therefore solving AGI). It is >> dedicated to the maintenance not the breaking of rules. >> >> "As for Logic, its syllogisms and the majority of its other precepts are >> of avail rather in the communication of what we already know, or... even in >> speaking without judgment of things of which we are ignorant, than in the >> investigation of the unknown." >> Descartes >> >> If I and Descartes are right - and there is every reason to think so, >> (incl. the odd million, logically inexplicable metaphors not to mention many >> millions of logically inexplicable jokes) - you surely should be addressing >> this matter urgently, not evading it.. >> >> P.P.S. You should also bear in mind that a vast amount of jokes (which >> involve the surprising crossing of domains) explicitly depend on >> ILLOGICALITY. Take the classic Jewish joke about the woman who, told that >> her friend's son has the psychological problem of an Oedipus Complex, says: >> "Oedipus Schmoedipus, what does it matter as long as he loves his mother?" >> And your logical explanation is..? >> >> ------------------------------ >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC > Director of Research, SIAI > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first > overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson > > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=114414975-3c8e69 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
