CFJ 1895 may be useful, although it was written when 'person' was defined
in other ways. The key quote:
It is a longstanding principle of Agora that fundamental telos, the
is non-assumable, irreducible, and non-transferable. Every assumed act of
free will can be traced to a particular person's desire. Thus, as final
cause and intention, this intention, and free will is, also
in the most fundamental sense.
In other words, if there's a collection of persons behind an Agoran action,
they are the "originators of thought", not Agora.
On Tue, 13 Feb 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> - It depends on what thought you're referring to, because thoughts are
> personal experiences. The original idea of Agora was originated by M.
> Norrish via their own creativity but the non-creative activity of
> perceiving Agora itself gives rise to other ideas (therefore "originating"
> them as per the term). For example, the personal thought experience of
> Agora itself within each player.
> - " Freely originating thoughts means originating thoughts of its own
> accord" <- there is no explicit mention that the origination needs to be
> made by the person itself.
> - The argument can be generalized that Agora, as a gestalt of various
> game-communications, can originate (in the sense of "giving rise to")
> various thoughts besides itself. Such as the thought experience of CFJs in
> the game and whatnot.
> - Indeed it doesn't. But containing thoughts isn't a requirement to be a
> person, just originating and communicating them.
> - The same argument could be put that you (most likely lol) can only
> communicate ideas that you're able to vocalize/write and think of - and are
> incapable of communicating any other ideas. Does that mean you do not
> communicate ideas freely? We could indeed argue that we are indeed not
> truely entirely free, therefore, none of us are persons, therefore, none of
> us is actually a player of this game.
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:18 AM, Gaelan Steele <g...@canishe.com> wrote:
> > Proto-gratuitous arguments:
> > There are several issues with this argument. (s/thought/(thought or idea)
> > throughout)
> > Agora did not originate the thought of Agora. While Agora may embody that
> > thought, the thought was originated by Michael Norrish.
> > Freely originating thoughts means originating thoughts of its own accord.
> > Agora can’t just go out and originate some idea that hasn’t been thought of
> > by a player in the past. Agora is not free to originate independent
> > thoughts.
> > Thoughts plural. Even ignoring the above points, Agora only originates the
> > thought of itself.
> > Agora has no independent thoughts. Any “thoughts” contained within Agora
> > were originally from a player.
> > Agora does not communicate ideas freely. It only communicates ideas that
> > one of us has sent to the mailing list and is incapable of communicating
> > any other ideas.
> > Gaelan
> > > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:14 PM, Cuddle Beam <cuddleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I Free-CFJ the following: "Agora is a Person"
> > >
> > > Grat. Arguments:
> > >
> > > R869 says "Any organism that is generally capable of freely
> > > originating and communicating
> > > independent thoughts and ideas is a person."
> > >
> > > There is no mention that the independent thoughts and ideas that are
> > > originated or communicated need to be from this "person" themselves. With
> > > that known:
> > >
> > > Agora originates the thought of Agora itself (as its current being - a
> > real
> > > thing). If it didn't exist, we wouldn't be able to think of
> > > Agora-the-real-thing as we do now.
> > >
> > > Existing as it does now _initiates_ the process of creating the thought
> > of
> > > acknowledging that it exists, therefore it fulfills the definition of
> > > "originating" that thought.
> > >
> > > There is no extraordinary restriction to how Agora performs this feat,
> > > therefore, Agora freely originates the thought of Agora itself.
> > >
> > > Agora is a communication system, evidenced by this mailing list and R101.
> > > It communicates (without extraordinary restriction) our own independent
> > > thoughts and ideas, by merit of being a transportation system of those
> > > things.
> > >
> > > And so, Agora does in fact freely originate independent thoughts/ideas
> > (in
> > > other entities which are capable of such) and communicates thoughts/ideas
> > > (from others). Agora is a person.