Agreed with Gaelan re teleporters and ornaments, unless I'm misreading what
you're saying, Cuddle Beam.

An example of two categories would be a unique (Agoran Monument) production
facility like a wonder in Civ. You can imagine a race to build it/steal it
from other players, with whoever has it having an advantage but having to
work to defend their claim.

Or, imagine you had facilities that could pollute the environment, defining
a Polluter category and then simply adding all the facilities that caused
pollution to that category, without having to copy the same rule across
many locations.

I do think that this is maybe a case of premature optimization and that one
category would work just as well. I'd be happy to change it if people are
unconvinced and want the simple version.


On Mar 3, 2018 8:36 AM, "Gaelan Steele" <> wrote:

Ornaments and teleporters would both fit in an "other" category—they
wouldn't need to be both production and processing.


> On Mar 3, 2018, at 3:37 AM, Cuddle Beam <> wrote:
> I suggest adding an example along that extensibility to market the idea of
> it better. Swag purely aesthetics ornaments, walls and teleporters,
> perhaps? (Not entirely necessary though, it just makes it look better
> because it has a purpose instead of being blank)
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 8:44 AM, Aris Merchant <
>> wrote:
>> I'm happy to admit that I may have been wrong on this one. However,
>> extensibility is important. I was hoping we could do it in a short
>> paragraph, not a whole rule. What do you guys think?
>> -Aris
>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:05 PM Gaelan Steele <> wrote:
>>> Sorry I forgot to bring this up earlier, but I think unless we have a
>>> case for facilities with multiple types, we should just have a simple
>>> production/processing/{monument,other} option. This is well-written, but
>>> until we need it I think it would be better to avoid the complexity.
>>> Gaelan
>>>> On Mar 2, 2018, at 1:37 PM, Kenyon Prater <>
>> wrote:
>>>> Gray Land and Fountain Draft 1 {
>>>> Amend rule 1995/0 "Land Types" (Power=2.0):
>>>>   Replace "whose values are "Black", "White", and "Aether"", with the
>>>>   text "whose values are "Black", "White", "Gray", and "Aether""
>>>> Create a new rule "Facility Categories", (Power=2.0):
>>>>   A Category is an entity specified as such by the rule that creates
>> it.
>>>>   A facility's Categories may be defined in the rule that creates it,
>>> and
>>>>   may be any set of Categories defined in the rules. If no Categories
>>> are
>>>>   defined in the facility's creating rules, the facility's Categories
>> is
>>>>   the null set.
>>>>   A facility belongs to [Category] if that Category is an element in
>> its
>>>>   Categories. A [Category] facility refers to a facility that belong
>> to
>>>>   [Category]. A Pure-[Category] facility refers to a facility that
>>> belong
>>>>   to [Category] and no others.
>>>> Amend "Asset Generation with Facilities" (Power=2.0) to read the
>>> following:
>>>>   Asset Generator is a Category of facilities. When an Asset Generator
>>>>   facility creates assets, the assets are added to the facility's
>>>>   possession. The rule that creates an Asset Generator facility CAN
>>>>   specify a carrying capacity for assets. If, at any time, the amount
>> of
>>>>   an asset in the possession of an Asset Generator facility exceeds
>> that
>>>>   asset's carrying capacity, an amount of that asset is destroyed
>> until
>>>>   the amount of that asset in the possession of the facility is equal
>> to
>>>>   its carrying capacity.
>>>>   Production is a Category of facilities. A facility that is a
>>> Production
>>>>   facility is also an Asset Generator facility. At the end of every
>>>>   Agoran Week, Agora creates a number of assets in a Production
>> facility
>>>>   specified by the rule which creates the facility.
>>>>   Processing is a Category of facilities. A facility that is a
>>> Processing
>>>>   facility is also an Asset Generator facility. At the end of every
>>>>   Agoran Week, Agora destroys any refinable assets in the possession
>> of
>>>>   each processing facility that that facility can change into refined
>>>>   assets and replaces them with a corresponding number of refined
>> assets
>>>>   to be specified by the rule that creates the facility.
>>>>   A player can take a number of assets from an Asset Generator
>>> facility's
>>>>   inventory by announcement if eir location is the same as the
>>> facility's
>>>>   and the following criteria are met:
>>>>   1. if the facility is built on Public Land, none.
>>>>   2. if the facility is built on Communal Land, e must be a party to
>>>>      that contract and the text of the contract must permit em to do
>>>>      so.
>>>>   3. if the facility is built on Private Land, e must own the
>>>>      facility, or the owner must have consented.
>>>> Amend "Facility Ranks" (Power=2.0) to read the following:
>>>>   Rank is a facility switch tracked by the Cartographor defaulting to
>> 1.
>>>>   Its possible values include all integers between 1 and 5, inclusive.
>>>>   If a facility specifies upgrade costs, a player CAN increase the
>> rank
>>>>   of a facility e owns that is at eir location by exactly 1 by
>>>>   announcement by paying any upgrade costs of the facility for that
>>>>   specific rank. If no upgrade costs are specified for a facility, a
>>>>   player CANNOT increase the rank of that facility unless specified in
>>>>   other rules.
>>>> Create a new rule "Facility Colors" (Power=2.0):
>>>>   A facility's Allowed Land Types is a property defined as such,
>> having
>>>>   allowable values of any set of allowed values of the Land Type
>> switch,
>>>>   with a default value of {"Black", "White"}. A facility may not have
>> a
>>>>   Parent Land Unit whose Land Type is not an element of their Allowed
>>>>   Land Types. If an action or set of actions would cause a facility to
>>> be
>>>>   created with a Parent Land Unit whose Land Type is not an element of
>>>>   its Allowed Land Types, that action or set of actions fails. If a
>>>>   facility's Parent Land Unit's Land Type is flipped to a color that
>> is
>>>>   not in that facility's Allowed Land Types, that facility, and
>> anything
>>>>   contained within, is destroyed.
>>>> Create a new rule "Gray Land" (Power=2.0):
>>>>   Gray Land is Land whose Land Type switch is set to "Gray". Gray Land
>>>>   is preserved and owned by Agora. If Land becomes Gray Land, it,
>> along
>>>>   with any facilities with it as their Parent Land Unit, are
>> transfered
>>>>   to Agora, and the Land's preservation switch is set to true.
>>>> Create a new rule "Gray Actions" (Power=1.0):
>>>>   Players CAN destroy:
>>>>   1. 1 apple to move from one Gray Land Unit to an adjacent Unit of
>> any
>>>>      Land Type that is not Aether;
>>>>   2. 1 apple to move from one Land Unit of any Land Type to an
>> adjacent
>>>>      Gray Land Unit.
>>>>   Players CAN, while performing the above actions, substitute 3
>>>>   apples for 1 corn. [Maybe need a good way to say that these actions
>>> can
>>>>   be combined with actions described in Actions in Arcadia for the
>>>>   purposes of spending corn.]
>>>> Create a new rule "Agoran Monuments" (Power=1.0):
>>>>   Agoran Monument is a Category of facilities. For each type of Agoran
>>>>   Monument facility, there may only be one instance of that facility
>> in
>>>>   existence at any one time. If an action would cause an Agoran
>> Monument
>>>>   facility to exist while another Agoran Monument facility of the same
>>>>   type is already in existence, that action fails.
>>>> Create a new rule "The Fountain" (Power=1.0):
>>>>   A fountain is a facility with Allowed Land Types of {"Gray"}, and
>>>>   Categories {Agoran Monument}. A fountain has no upkeep cost.
>>>> Create a new rule "Wishing Fountain", (Power=1.0):
>>>>   If a player's location is the same as a fountain, e CAN and MAY
>>> destroy
>>>>   a coin to Throw A Coin into the fountain. This does nothing, unless
>>>>   specified in another Rule. A player MAY announce what e wishes for
>>> when
>>>>   e Throws A Coin.
>>>> Set (0, 0)'s Land Type to "Gray".
>>>> Create a fountain at (0, 0) belonging to Agora.
>>>> }
>>>> Reasons for rules:
>>>> - "Land Types" needs to be amended to add Gray as a Land Type.
>>>> - "Facility Categories" is an implementation of Aris' suggestion of
>>>>       defining facility categories.
>>>> - "Asset Generation with Facilities" is amended to turn production and
>>>>       processing into Categories. The actual rules for specific
>>>>       facilities can be unmodified, I think.
>>>> - "Facility Ranks" is modified so it's clear what happens if a facility
>>>>       doesn't define ranks, like the fountain right now.
>>>> - "Facility Colors" is Trigon's suggestion of "X facilities"
>>>> - "Gray Land" defines how Gray Land works, including Trigon's
>> suggestion
>>>>       of specifying that Gray Land is always preserved.
>>>> - "Gray Actions" allows walking on Gray Land.
>>>> - "Agoran Monuments" specifies a Category used for unique structures
>> that
>>>>       can only exist one place in Arcadia.
>>>> - "The Fountain" is self explanatory, creates a unique gray fountain.
>>>> - "Wishing Fountain" is just so fountains have a use, even a useless
>> one.
>>>> Corrections, fixes, ideas, etc would all be highly appreciated.
>>>> Kenyon
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 3:39 AM, Cuddle Beam <>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> I think non-Proc/Prod facilities would be great. Walls or streets for
>>>>> example would be cool.
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:01 AM, Aris Merchant <
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I'd go with solution 2, but modified. What if we made it so that each
>>>>>> facility could fit into (0 or more) "categories", and defined
>>> Production
>>>>>> and Processing as categories. That way, we could extend it later
>>> without
>>>>>> dealing with an exponential increase in the number of types. It also
>>>>> leave
>>>>>> flexibility if we want to do 3 later.
>>>>>> -Aris
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM Kenyon Prater <>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I ran into a problem that I figured I'd share and ask for input.
>>>>>>> "Asset Generation with Facilities" specifies that "Each facility is
>>>>>> either
>>>>>>> a production facility or processing facility". The draft up there
>>>>>> specifies
>>>>>>> that a fountain is a facility, but that it neither produces nor
>>>>> processes
>>>>>>> anything. There are a couple solutions that I see:
>>>>>>> 1) A fountain is a production facility that produces nothing, or a
>>>>>>> processing facility that processes nothing. Easy, kinda a hack, but
>>>>> it'll
>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>> 2) Modify "Asset Generation with Facilities" so facilities can have
>> a
>>>>>> type
>>>>>>> of any element in {None, Production, Processing, Production &
>>>>>> Processing},
>>>>>>> and fountains are type None.
>>>>>>> 3) Define "buildings" as a superset/superclass of facilities, move
>> the
>>>>>>> shared rules to new rules about Buildings, and have fountain and
>>>>> facility
>>>>>>> be types of buildings with their own specific sub-rules. Easily the
>>>>> most
>>>>>>> flexible, but requires a fairly significant refactor, so it only
>>> really
>>>>>>> seems worth it if this is going to be a recurring problem. If the
>>>>>> fountain
>>>>>>> is the only non-facility-facility we add, we might as well go with 1
>>> or
>>>>>> 2.
>>>>>>> If we're adding a ton of non-production buildings (arenas, houses,
>>>>> roads,
>>>>>>> whatever) then this might be worth it?
>>>>>>> Not sure if there's a smarter solution here, but I just wanted to
>> get
>>>>>>> feedback to see if people were OK with 1 or if they thought 2 and 3
>>>>> were
>>>>>>> better, or if there's another option I didn't consider.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Kenyon
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 10:32 AM, Reuben Staley <
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Comments inline.
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 5:22 PM, Aris Merchant
>>>>>>>> <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I like this. I'll have more detailed comments when it's typed up
>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>> proposal, but I think that this fits with the spirit of what we're
>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>> for. Certainly it is a good idea to have a neutral spawn point,
>>>>> even
>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> colors don't mean that much yet. I suggest just calling the
>>>>> facility
>>>>>>> type
>>>>>>>>> "fountain", and letting people refer to it as "the fountain",
>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> there's only one. You could even make it an explicit singleton.
>>>>>>> Something
>>>>>>>>> to the effect of "There is a unique facility, know as 'the
>>>>> fountain',
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> (0, 0). It... <properties>." I'd also suggest not referencing
>>>>>>>>> Rule 2029 by number (and definitely don't include the revision
>>>>> id).
>>>>>>>>> Instead, either just say "the town fountain", or let people figure
>>>>> it
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>> for themselves (my personal favored option).
>>>>>>>> I agree with everything Aris said here.
>>>>>>>>> -Aris
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 4:05 PM Kenyon Prater <
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A very rough draft for a proposal. I'm going to hold off on
>>>>> writing
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>> until the current mess is resolved, but I wanted to get feedback
>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>>>>> the idea is interesting to people
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would: {
>>>>>>>>>> Create a Land Type of "Gray". Land that has Land Type "Gray" is
>>>>> gray
>>>>>>>> land.
>>>>>>>>>> Gray land cannot support any facilities except those specifically
>>>>>>>> stated to
>>>>>>>>>> be allowed on gray land. If land becomes gray land, any
>> facilities
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> are destroyed, except for those specifically stated to be allowed
>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> gray
>>>>>>>>>> land.
>>>>>>>> Maybe to avoid redundancy, you could term these facilities "gray
>>>>>>>> facilities". Or even make a rule that says "X facilities" where X
>> is
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> land type in case we decide to restrict the land types some
>>>>> facilities
>>>>>>>> can be on in the future.
>>>>>>>>>> Gray land cannot be owned by any entity other than Agora. If land
>>>>>>>> becomes
>>>>>>>>>> Gray land, it is transfered to Agora.
>>>>>>>> *transferred. Maybe also say that Gray land is always preserved.
>> That
>>>>>>>> way, no one can modify any of the facilities on the gray land.
>>>>>>>>>> Gray land is treated as "the same" as both white and black for
>> the
>>>>>>>> purposes
>>>>>>>>>> of movement, ie it only costs one apple to move from any
>>>>> non-aether
>>>>>>>> land to
>>>>>>>>>> gray, and only one apple to move from gray to any non-aether
>> land.
>>>>>>>>>> Set (0, 0) to Gray land.
>>>>>>>>>> Create a new facility type "the fountain". Only one the fountain
>>>>> may
>>>>>>>> exist
>>>>>>>>>> at any one time. The fountain may exist on gray land, and may
>> only
>>>>>>>> exist on
>>>>>>>>>> gray land. Players MAY and SHOULD think of this fountain as
>>>>>> referring
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the one depicted in Rule 2029/0 "Town Fountain". The fountain may
>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> owned by Agora. The fountain has no upkeep cost, and neither
>>>>> refines
>>>>>>> nor
>>>>>>>>>> produces anything, except as specified in other proposals.
>>>>>>>> Just "Fountain" please.
>>>>>>>>>> Create a "the fountain" at (0, 0) belonging to Agora.
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>> My goal with the draft was to to;
>>>>>>>>>> 1) make the number of preserved squares each color had equal.
>>>>>>>>>> 2) To ensure that the spawn at (0,0) was neutral to both colors
>>>>>> (right
>>>>>>>> now,
>>>>>>>>>> a player residing on one of the colors has to spend an extra
>> apple
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>>>> back home as compared to somebody residing equally far on the
>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> color).
>>>>>>>>>> 3) To provide a meeting ground for players for future rules to
>>>>> use.
>>>>>>> One
>>>>>>>>>> could imagine a rule specifying that all players at (0,0) on
>>>>> Agora's
>>>>>>>>>> Birthday CAN [do something]. Or this could be integrated into the
>>>>>>>> justice
>>>>>>>>>> reform; to rid themselves of weevils/blots/whatever, players must
>>>>>>> make a
>>>>>>>>>> pilgrimage to the fountain to give [currency].
>>>>>>>> Very nice. Perhaps Cuddlebeam's idea for arenas could have a
>> physical
>>>>>>>> manifestation on a piece of gray land. This also makes it really
>> nice
>>>>>>>> for future Agora-sponsored activities that take place on a map.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Trigon

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