I do have a question. What does fabric do?

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Reuben Staley <reuben.sta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> After thinking this whole thing through, I'm not sure that it's actually a
> problem if people with zombies have tons of money. It's completely possible
> to amass a fortune by living off of public land, so little guys can still
> get money that they can spend on zombies and/or land eventually. The monthly
> salary ensures that less affluent players have a constant source of income
> that they can use to survive.
>
> Included in the salary is 10 coins, 5 apples, and 2 papers. I will now
> explain how this allows one to sustainably live.
>
> Having some coins ensures that a player can, with enough time, gain wealth
> by using careful spending. If you don't purchase anything for two months and
> are just living off of the base salary, you have 20 coins. That's more than
> enough to buy land unit, as demonstrated by the previous land unit auction,
> where the highest selling unit was worth 16 coins. And as long as you take
> some public action during that time, you are safe from the legal theft of
> zombiehood. Additionally, with time, some land units will become more
> valuable to control, leaving others neglected. Going for neglected land
> units will make it so that you won't have to pay nearly as much to get
> yourself started.
>
> Having some apples ensures that you can move around the map. Assuming you
> stay around the origin, you can do a few rounds of nabbing stuffs to get
> even more resources. Inconveniently, more coins are out of your reach, but
> that's intentional since I wanted you to have to work for a little while
> before you can basically print money. But, as demonstrated in the past few
> weeks, you can get more apples and more corn from the preserved farm and
> orchard, making it completely possible to stay living in the center of the
> map for a while.
>
> Proposals are the most powerful thing in the game, and under the current
> rules, you're guaranteed to be able to submit some every month because you
> get two papers every month. Perhaps there can be a coin reward for a
> proposal passing. I think we had that under the proportional economy rules.
> If we institute this change, then it provides incentive to create good
> proposals. I think it would give these less affluent players more
> opportunity as well, which is a good thing.
>
> But that's not even all of it. As we all know, officers are given 5 coins
> and 1 corn at the beginning of the month for faithful service. Less affluent
> players can get a low-effort office that no one is currently occupying,
> which allows them to receive extra income. But, as I've made clear before,
> I'm dissatisfied with the way officers are paid, since some offices clearly
> require more recordkeeping than others. See this message[1] for my
> previously published ideas on how to fix it.
>
> In conclusion, I think it's clear now that less affluent people actually
> have way more opportunities than lots of people here estimate. Even still, I
> think some reforms are in order to improve the state of the economy, namely
> the officer fix and reinstitution of proposal rewards.
>
> It is because of all this that I don't think redistribution to poor players
> is the reform we need.
>
> [1]
> https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-discussion@agoranomic.org/msg42699.html
>
>
> On 4/11/2018 5:58 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Reuben Staley wrote:
>>>
>>> I think Corona was talking about the thing where Agora would get all the
>>> money that people spent and distribute it tbuno the poorest players. That
>>> was
>>> under the proportional economy where only 1000 shinies could exist.
>>>
>>> I think if we were to reimplement that system, it would be too easy to
>>> scam, with zombies and contracts and whatnot, so I'm not sold just yet.
>>> If
>>> another proposal comes forth proposing a different way of filtering
>>> assets
>>> back into the economy, I might be willing to support it.
>>
>>
>> The issue I had with that system is you couldn't distinguish "poor because
>> I don't have an income source/others are always ahead" from "poor because
>> I
>> had a bunch of money and just now spent it."  If you award the latter it
>> leads to weird incentive systems to either hold everything or spend
>> everything but not to stay in between.
>>
>> In "game-balancing" here, there's two separate issues to think about:
>>
>> 1.  Can someone get enough possessions to participate on a basic level on
>> a
>> regular basis?  (e.g. by pending proposals, walking around the map, and
>> other fixed-cost things to buy).  For this, monthly salary takes care of
>> it
>> (more or less), secondarily land production.  This was what redistribution
>> was supposed to accomplish when salaries and land production didn't exist,
>> but now that we have salaries that's fine (if it's not enough, just
>> increase
>> salary rather than adding a separate mechanism).
>>
>> 2.  Is someone so far behind they can never be competitive in auctions?
>> This is the bigger issue, if zombie-owners always earn at 2x the rate they
>> will always outbid and raise prices.  This is multiplicative - the more
>> auctions they win, the more they get and so on so early leads build into
>> big
>> ones.  Redistribution won't help that unless you redistribute so much that
>> it wipes out all leads (if it does that, why would anyone bother to play
>> the
>> subgame?)
>>
>> There are ways to address both, but I don't think redistributing to
>> poorest
>> players addresses either?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 10:04 Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's what monthly salary is right?
>>>>
>>>> Problem of course is that applies to zombies too - excluding zombies
>>>> from
>>>> salary would balance though of course would devalue zombies.
>>>>
>>>> I was really surprised that the zombie auction prices were so low.  In
>>>> the
>>>> current system, the ability to occupy multiple land units/move in
>>>> multiple
>>>> directions and place multiple bids in auctions is huge (that wasn't
>>>> planned
>>>> on my part when I made zombies - I was pretty much thinking of them as a
>>>> way to get an extra vote or two).
>>>>
>>>> On the flip side, zombies are a precarious investment because you can
>>>> lose
>>>> them at any time.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Corona wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, it would be good IMO if something like the now repealed
>>>>> redistribution of Agora's money to the poor was enacted.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 11, 2018, Reuben Staley <reuben.sta...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm starting to think I've opened a proverbial Pandora's Box of sorts
>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that the map and zombie mechanics are going to spiral out of control
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> create some ultra-capitalist society in the future. Oh well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 07:33 ATMunn <iamingodsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually I believe this failed, as I tried to move from black to
>>>>
>>>> white
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> by spending only one apple.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I am still currently standing at (-1, +1) then I spend 2 apples to
>>>>>>> move to (-1, 0) and another to move to (-1, -1).
>>>>>>> I then transfer all of the assets from the facility where I am
>>>>
>>>> standing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/11/2018 9:27 AM, ATMunn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I transfer all of the assets where I am standing to me.
>>>>>>>> I spend 1 apple to move to (-1, 0) and then another to move to (-1,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -1).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I then transfer all of the assets where I am standing to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also act on Nichdel's behalf to transfer all of eir assets to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/11/2018 2:22 AM, Reuben Staley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> THE MAP OF ARCADIA -- APRIL 2, 2018
>>>>>>>>> View an interactive version of this report here:
>>>>>>>>> https://agoranomic.org/Cartographor/maps/map-2018-04-11.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> LAND TYPE MAP
>>>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ============
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>           LONGITUDE
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>       - 6543210123456 +
>>>>>>>>>      -                 -
>>>>>>>>>      6  *************  6
>>>>>>>>>      5  *************  5    aether (*)
>>>>>>>>>      4  *************  4    (b)lack
>>>>>>>>> L  3  *************  3    (w)hite
>>>>>>>>> A  2  *************  2
>>>>>>>>> T  1  ****wwwbb****  1
>>>>>>>>> I  0  ****wwbbb****  0
>>>>>>>>> T  1  ****wwbbbw***  1
>>>>>>>>> U  2  ******bwb****  2
>>>>>>>>> D  3  *************  3
>>>>>>>>> E  4  *************  4
>>>>>>>>>      5  *************  5
>>>>>>>>>      6  *************  6
>>>>>>>>>      +                 +
>>>>>>>>>       - 6543210123456 +
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OWNERSHIP MAP
>>>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ============
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>           LONGITUDE
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>       - 6543210123456 +
>>>>>>>>>      -                 -
>>>>>>>>>      6  *************  6
>>>>>>>>>      5  *************  5    Agora, Aether (*)
>>>>>>>>>      4  *************  4    Agora, Non-Aether (.)
>>>>>>>>> L  3  *************  3    (G)aelan
>>>>>>>>> A  2  *************  2    (K)enyon
>>>>>>>>> T  1  ****G...K****  1    (T)rigon
>>>>>>>>> I  0  ****T...C****  0    (C)orona
>>>>>>>>> T  1  ****C.....***  1
>>>>>>>>> U  2  ******...****  2
>>>>>>>>> D  3  *************  3
>>>>>>>>> E  4  *************  4
>>>>>>>>>      5  *************  5
>>>>>>>>>      6  *************  6
>>>>>>>>>      +                 +
>>>>>>>>>       - 6543210123456 +
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> PRESERVATION MAP
>>>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ============
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>           LONGITUDE
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>       - 6543210123456 +
>>>>>>>>>      -                 -
>>>>>>>>>      6  fffffffffffff  6
>>>>>>>>>      5  fffffffffffff  5    (t)rue
>>>>>>>>>      4  fffffffffffff  4    (f)alse
>>>>>>>>> L  3  fffffffffffff  3
>>>>>>>>> A  2  fffffffffffff  2
>>>>>>>>> T  1  ffffftttfffff  1
>>>>>>>>> I  0  ffffftttfffff  0
>>>>>>>>> T  1  ffffftttfffff  1
>>>>>>>>> U  2  fffffffffffff  2
>>>>>>>>> D  3  fffffffffffff  3
>>>>>>>>> E  4  fffffffffffff  4
>>>>>>>>>      5  fffffffffffff  5
>>>>>>>>>      6  fffffffffffff  6
>>>>>>>>>      +                 +
>>>>>>>>>       - 6543210123456 +
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FACILITIES
>>>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ============
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (-1, -1): Preserved Rank 1 Mine, owned by Agora
>>>>>>>>>             Assets: 3 stones, 2 ore
>>>>>>>>> (-1, +1): Preserved Rank 1 Orchard, owned by Agora
>>>>>>>>>             Assets: 3 apples, 3 lumber
>>>>>>>>> (+1, -1): Preserved Rank 1 Farm, owned by Agora
>>>>>>>>>             Assets: 3 corn, 3 cotton
>>>>>>>>> (+1, +1): Preserved Rank 1 Mine, owned by Agora
>>>>>>>>>             Assets: 3 stones, 2 ore
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> LOCATIONS OF ENTITIES
>>>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ============
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Player       Last report   This Report
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> omd          ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> o            ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> Aris         (-1, -1)      (-1, -1)
>>>>>>>>> DFF[1]       ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> Quazie       ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> P.S.S.[2]    ( 0,  0)      (-1, -1)
>>>>>>>>> Gaelan       ( 0,  0)      (-1, -1)
>>>>>>>>> nichdel      ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> G.           ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> Cuddlebeam   (-1, -1)      (-1, -1)
>>>>>>>>> Trigon       ( 0,  0)      (+1, +2)
>>>>>>>>> Telnaior     ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> Corona       ( 0,  0)      (+1, +1)
>>>>>>>>> pokes        ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> Murphy       ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> VJ Rada      ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>> Kenyon       (-1, +1)      (-1, +1)
>>>>>>>>> ATMunn       (-1, +1)      (-1, +1)
>>>>>>>>> Ouri         ( 0,  0)      ( 0,  0)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1]: In Full, 天火狐
>>>>>>>>> [2]: In Full, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ALTERNATING LAND TYPE
>>>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ============
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The alternating land type has been switched 4 times.
>>>>>>>>> The current value is Black.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CHANGES IN LAND TYPE AND OWNERSHIP
>>>>>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ============
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Date         Unit      From    To
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> 2018-04-09   (-1, +2)   Agora   Kenyon
>>>>>>>>> 2018-04-09   ( 0, -2)   Agora   Trigon
>>>>>>>>> 2018-04-09   (+1, -2)   Agora   Corona
>>>>>>>>> 2018-04-09   ( 0, +2)   Agora   Corona
>>>>>>>>> 2018-04-10   (-1, -2)   Agora   Gaelan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> ¯Corona
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> http://www.avg.com
>>
>
> --
> Trigon



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

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