I was the one to advocate early release with bugs fixed through
playtesting, and I'm guilty of abandoning my reform plans too, I'm sorry.

An important point I'd like to make (for future economies if the current
one can't be salvaged): I'm not sure where I read it anymore, but Agora is
supposed to have these "lightning rods" in place to prevent/discourage a
player or a group of players from acquiring permanent dominance (but
simultaneously reward the players for their achievement). That is, when
such dominance would happen, the progress that the player has made towards
it is erased, and the player gets a win, and play can go on. This mechanic
should be present in the economy too.

E.g. the Black Ribbons/Win by Clout for the voting aspect of Agora, or the
fairly recent Politics system, which, ignoring the (fixable) bugs would
have worked quite nicely - when a player gained a majority of the
politicians' votes, they got a win and all of eir currencies related to the
Politics system were reset, allowing play to resume.


@G.: Yes. It's not like I wasn't playing by the same rules as everyone else
(I didn't even exploit any bug, the one I tried didn't work), I just looted
and bid more often. And creating a monopoly should be handled by a
"lightning rod", see above.

~Corona

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 7:45 PM, Reuben Staley <reuben.sta...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> If we want to "fix" Arcadia, we need to figure out what the underlying
> issues are. So what /are/ the issues with these mechanics?
>
> I did not take zombies into consideration when writing up the original
> PAoaM proposal. Zombies provided a cheap way to get double your monthly
> income when I wanted the only way to gain more income to be by interacting
> with the facilities mechanic. If zombies hadn't been a thing, maybe the
> monopolies wouldn't have been so simple to nail down.
>
> It was unbalanced in ways that I couldn't have forseen. Upgrading
> Processing Facilities is something we're just getting into now, but it's an
> important thing. A rank 5 mine feeding 10 ore a week into a rank 5
> refinery... that is 130 coins a week. Once someone goes a couple weeks with
> this setup, they might be impossible to defeat.
>
> Players also stopped caring. Maybe if we had some of the early adopters of
> the Arcadia mechanics still playing, it would be easier to gang up on the
> monopolists, but many of them have simply stopped caring about these
> mechanics. It's gotten too dramatic.
>
> I was not the best at being an effective Cartographor. I didn't do weekly
> land auctions half of the time. I could have done a lot more to ensure
> healthy development of the map.
>
> PAoaM was a buggy mess that took months to fix. That really hindered
> people's enjoyment of it for ~3 months after it passed.
>
> In my opinion, the Arcadia subgame has gotten progressively less fun due
> to a multitude of reasons. People keep on trying to patch it, but all those
> patches fall through and are either abandoned by their creator or they
> don't actually fix the underlying issues.
>
> But, as G. says here, the underlying issues might not even the biggest
> problem. A lack of knowledge on how these mechanics will effect the game
> is. We. Don't. Playtest. And I don't know how keen others would be on trial
> and error to find a balanced set of mechanics. That sure sounds like a
> borefest to me.
>
> If it's true that to get a perfect set of mechanics is just repeated
> tests, count me with the repeal-the-whole-dang-thing crowd. I think lots of
> us here would agree.
>
> I know I said that I wanted to preserve the Arcadian mechanics as long as
> I could but I'm beginning to think that it really is time to get rid of
> these mechanics. Hopefully someone else can come up with a breakthrough.
>
>
> On 07/05/2018 11:22 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Eh, mark me as someone who would be burned out.
>>
>> It took - hmm, a few months play, a coin/corn bug, and a big payroll from
>> zombies to open up the board (for everyone) and get some land enough to
>> get
>> to this point.
>>
>> At this point - with several land - I'm starting to get into the worker
>> placement and currency budgeting part and it's kind of interesting.  I'm
>> even willing to keep trying for a little bit as-is.  But I'm not keen
>> enough to do a reset and go through all that again over months to get to
>> this point.
>>
>> Now maybe your reforms would help substantially, but they're not
>> play-tested.
>> If we could tweak in fast-time ("go through" enough rounds without taking
>> weeks to do so each time) we might find a set of rules that worked via
>> playtesting.  Maybe doing auctions differently would help.  But after
>> shinies and then this, I'm not really feeling the commitment to do economy
>> round#3 at Agora-speed while waiting for the inevitable crashing bugs.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 5 Jul 2018, Reuben Staley wrote:
>>
>>> Reply-to is the worst.
>>>
>>> On 07/05/2018 10:33 AM, Reuben Staley wrote:
>>>
>>>> As in resetting the map and giving everyone a welcome-package-sized
>>>> amount
>>>> of resources and making a little spawn island? It might work,
>>>> considering
>>>> that that reform plan was supposed to fix balancing issues. But also I
>>>> think
>>>> that would just make even more people burned out on this subgame.
>>>>
>>>> On 07/05/2018 10:20 AM, Corona wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ​What about just resetting the economy (to the same state as when it
>>>>> was
>>>>> enacted) while implementing Trigon's planned reforms?
>>>>>
>>>>> ~Corona
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aaaaand .... yeah, not to do with paper, but on the Coins side I'm
>>>>>> done
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>> I'll support a full repeal of this mess.  Restraint is not something
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> everyone does well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 5 Jul 2018, Corona wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I bid 32 coins in auction 1.
>>>>>>> I bid 34 coins in auction 5.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~Corona
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 9:22 PM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I bid 32 coins in auction 5.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I bid 25 coins in auction 5.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, Reuben Staley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are currently more public, unpreserved, non-aether land
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> units in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> existence than I feel like counting. 5 land units of my choice
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> up for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> auction.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For the following 5 auctions, I am the announcer, Agora is the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> auctioneer, and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the minimum bid is 1 coin, and the lots are as such:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 1: the land unit at (-6, -1)
>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 2: the land unit at (-6, +1)
>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 3: the land unit at (-6, -2)
>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 4: the land unit at (-6, +2)
>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 5: the land unit at (+6, -1)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Trigon
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Trigon
>>>
>>>
> --
> Trigon
>

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