I'd suggest we make proposals free, drop zombies, and go back to the one
blot per week removal scheme. Then we enact another enconomy, and see if
the zombies are not so OP in that system.

-Aris

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:02 PM Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
> The "replacement" should be independent and after the repeal (not that
> discussing it is bad but that should be wholly separate).  Trying to do
> a "bridge" from shinies to Land was one of the places where compromises
> bogged down the start.
>
> OTOH, are we talking about getting rid of zombies too?  Because if not,
> we need Coins/currency of some sort for the bidding.  Which means partial
> repeal and figuring out coin distribution - and even if we say that's a
> scaleback that's still a "new" system.  At which point I'm like, if people
> want to try a tweaked land one more time, I'm down with that.
>
> On Thu, 5 Jul 2018, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > Sure. It just doesn't feel great to repeal something you've worked hard
> on.
> >
> > What should we replace it with? I'd like to see my pending system as a
> part
> > of the repeal. Other than that... maybe re adopt the Alexis's Party
> system?
> > We all agreed that it was fun to play, apart from some bugs, which could
> > definitely be fixed.
> >
> > -Aris
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM Reuben Staley <reuben.sta...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It's okay. I was a newer player, in over my head, who didn't have a
> > > great grasp of Agoran language, who would turn out to be a bad officer.
> > > But it was an interesting mechanic for a while.
> > >
> > > And thanks for offering to write up the repeal proposal, but I think it
> > > would only be appropriate that I finish the job I started.
> > >
> > > On 7/5/2018 12:38 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > > > I hate to do this, but I'm going to write up a full repeal. They're
> > > > interesting mechanics, but they just don't seem to be much fun to
> play. I
> > > > have a feeling that the problems are systemic enough that no amount
> of
> > > > tweaking will actually fix them. I'm sorry. I know you worked hard on
> > > this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Aris
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:45 AM Reuben Staley <
> reuben.sta...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> If we want to "fix" Arcadia, we need to figure out what the
> underlying
> > > >> issues are. So what /are/ the issues with these mechanics?
> > > >>
> > > >> I did not take zombies into consideration when writing up the
> original
> > > >> PAoaM proposal. Zombies provided a cheap way to get double your
> monthly
> > > >> income when I wanted the only way to gain more income to be by
> > > >> interacting with the facilities mechanic. If zombies hadn't been a
> > > >> thing, maybe the monopolies wouldn't have been so simple to nail
> down.
> > > >>
> > > >> It was unbalanced in ways that I couldn't have forseen. Upgrading
> > > >> Processing Facilities is something we're just getting into now, but
> it's
> > > >> an important thing. A rank 5 mine feeding 10 ore a week into a rank
> 5
> > > >> refinery... that is 130 coins a week. Once someone goes a couple
> weeks
> > > >> with this setup, they might be impossible to defeat.
> > > >>
> > > >> Players also stopped caring. Maybe if we had some of the early
> adopters
> > > >> of the Arcadia mechanics still playing, it would be easier to gang
> up on
> > > >> the monopolists, but many of them have simply stopped caring about
> these
> > > >> mechanics. It's gotten too dramatic.
> > > >>
> > > >> I was not the best at being an effective Cartographor. I didn't do
> > > >> weekly land auctions half of the time. I could have done a lot more
> to
> > > >> ensure healthy development of the map.
> > > >>
> > > >> PAoaM was a buggy mess that took months to fix. That really hindered
> > > >> people's enjoyment of it for ~3 months after it passed.
> > > >>
> > > >> In my opinion, the Arcadia subgame has gotten progressively less
> fun due
> > > >> to a multitude of reasons. People keep on trying to patch it, but
> all
> > > >> those patches fall through and are either abandoned by their
> creator or
> > > >> they don't actually fix the underlying issues.
> > > >>
> > > >> But, as G. says here, the underlying issues might not even the
> biggest
> > > >> problem. A lack of knowledge on how these mechanics will effect the
> game
> > > >> is. We. Don't. Playtest. And I don't know how keen others would be
> on
> > > >> trial and error to find a balanced set of mechanics. That sure
> sounds
> > > >> like a borefest to me.
> > > >>
> > > >> If it's true that to get a perfect set of mechanics is just repeated
> > > >> tests, count me with the repeal-the-whole-dang-thing crowd. I think
> lots
> > > >> of us here would agree.
> > > >>
> > > >> I know I said that I wanted to preserve the Arcadian mechanics as
> long
> > > >> as I could but I'm beginning to think that it really is time to get
> rid
> > > >> of these mechanics. Hopefully someone else can come up with a
> > > breakthrough.
> > > >>
> > > >> On 07/05/2018 11:22 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Eh, mark me as someone who would be burned out.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> It took - hmm, a few months play, a coin/corn bug, and a big
> payroll
> > > from
> > > >>> zombies to open up the board (for everyone) and get some land
> enough to
> > > >> get
> > > >>> to this point.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> At this point - with several land - I'm starting to get into the
> worker
> > > >>> placement and currency budgeting part and it's kind of interesting.
> > > I'm
> > > >>> even willing to keep trying for a little bit as-is.  But I'm not
> keen
> > > >>> enough to do a reset and go through all that again over months to
> get
> > > to
> > > >>> this point.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Now maybe your reforms would help substantially, but they're not
> > > >> play-tested.
> > > >>> If we could tweak in fast-time ("go through" enough rounds without
> > > taking
> > > >>> weeks to do so each time) we might find a set of rules that worked
> via
> > > >>> playtesting.  Maybe doing auctions differently would help.  But
> after
> > > >>> shinies and then this, I'm not really feeling the commitment to do
> > > >> economy
> > > >>> round#3 at Agora-speed while waiting for the inevitable crashing
> bugs.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, 5 Jul 2018, Reuben Staley wrote:
> > > >>>> Reply-to is the worst.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On 07/05/2018 10:33 AM, Reuben Staley wrote:
> > > >>>>> As in resetting the map and giving everyone a
> welcome-package-sized
> > > >> amount
> > > >>>>> of resources and making a little spawn island? It might work,
> > > >> considering
> > > >>>>> that that reform plan was supposed to fix balancing issues. But
> also
> > > I
> > > >> think
> > > >>>>> that would just make even more people burned out on this subgame.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On 07/05/2018 10:20 AM, Corona wrote:
> > > >>>>>> ​What about just resetting the economy (to the same state as
> when it
> > > >> was
> > > >>>>>> enacted) while implementing Trigon's planned reforms?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> ~Corona
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Kerim Aydin <
> ke...@u.washington.edu
> > > >
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Aaaaand .... yeah, not to do with paper, but on the Coins side
> I'm
> > > >> done
> > > >>>>>>> here.
> > > >>>>>>> I'll support a full repeal of this mess.  Restraint is not
> > > something
> > > >>>>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>> everyone does well.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Thu, 5 Jul 2018, Corona wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>> I bid 32 coins in auction 1.
> > > >>>>>>>> I bid 34 coins in auction 5.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> ~Corona
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 9:22 PM, Kerim Aydin <
> > > ke...@u.washington.edu
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> I bid 32 coins in auction 5.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>> I bid 25 coins in auction 5.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, Reuben Staley wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> There are currently more public, unpreserved, non-aether
> land
> > > >>>>>>> units in
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> existence than I feel like counting. 5 land units of my
> choice
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> are
> > > >>>>>>> put
> > > >>>>>>>>> up for
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> auction.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> For the following 5 auctions, I am the announcer, Agora is
> the
> > > >>>>>>>>> auctioneer, and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> the minimum bid is 1 coin, and the lots are as such:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 1: the land unit at (-6, -1)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 2: the land unit at (-6, +1)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 3: the land unit at (-6, -2)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 4: the land unit at (-6, +2)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> AUCTION 5: the land unit at (+6, -1)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Trigon
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> Trigon
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Trigon
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > > > https://www.avg.com
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Trigon
> > >
> >
>

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