On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 at 05:45, Aris Merchant
<thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 10:31 PM Jason Cobb <jason.e.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 8/4/19 1:23 AM, James Cook wrote:
> > >        Whenever a player has not done so in the past 4 days, e CAN
> > >        Commune with the Wheel by announcement, specifying Rock, Paper or
> > >        Scissors.  A player CAN Reach into the Past by announcement at any
> > >        time. If a player Communes the Wheel at a time T, and does not
> > >        Reach into the Past in the four days following T, then at time T
> > >        the value of the Roshambo Wheel is changed to the value e
> > >        specified.
> >
> >
> > I've been grappling with this for a while now, and I'm not sure that
> > this works. (Read: very, very unsure. It took me a while to decide to
> > even send this message, and I've started writing and then discarded
> > something like it several times.)
> >
> > Rule 2141 reads, in part:
> >
> > > A rule is a type of instrument with the capacity to govern the
> > > game generally, and is always taking effect. A rule's content
> > > takes the form of a text, and is unlimited in scope.
> >
> > This is the only place that states that the Rules actually take effect,
> > and when they do so. Given the specification "at time T", I don't think
> > that a Rule can point to an arbitrary time and say "disregard what time
> > it is now, I'm taking effect _then_".
> Even if this doesn’t actually work, we could probably understand it as
> establishing a legal fiction for the purposes of that rule. Of course,
> legal fictions can say whatever they want, so that wouldn’t be a problem.
> Convincing another rule of higher power to accept the legal fiction is a
> different matter, and why I don’t think this would work in general without
> a high powered enabling rule. In this specific case, that isn’t a problem
> because everything is self contained and no other rule needs to take notice
> of the legal fiction.
> -Aris

Argument in response to Jason Cobb, and a question:

First, argument that this Rule can do what it says (trying not to rely
on Aris's point that the legal fiction is self-contained):

When the player Communes with the Wheel (at time T), the rule is in
effect, and ordinarily could at that time say what the effect of an
action (like Communing with the Wheel) is. To make the time at which
the rule is having its effect more explicit, I could rephrase it to
"When a player Communes with the Wheel, the Roshambo Wheel is changed
to the value specified, as long as in the four days following the
player does not Reach into the Past". Would that help?

If you accept that much, then is there anything else special about
referring to the future? Does this cause any trouble that wouldn't be
caused by "The Roshambo Wheel is changed, unless the Pope is currently
thinking about food?" I think that would also make the value of the
wheel indeterminate (most of the time, anyway). I don't see what the
legal consequences of that are beyond where indeterminacy is
explicitly mentioned (R2202 (Ratification Without Objection) and R2162


I don't think I quite understand how interaction with higher-powered
rules is supposed to mess this up. I'm not necessarily suggesting we
do this, but if winning one round caused one to immediately earn Coins
(rather than after a delay of 4 days), would that break the "self
contained" nature of this problem, and provide a test case for this?
What would happen?

- Falsifian

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