At AMSAT-UK Colloquium last week, Peter said the current cost to HEO
for P3E or something like it is curently $10 Million (and the joke
was, pick your currency--it's about the same no matter what--US
dollar, Euros, GBP, etc.--BIG money)

So the number holds.

Mark N8MH

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Barry Baines <[email protected]> wrote:
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
> From: Mark Spencer <mspencer12345@xxxxxxxx>
> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
> Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs be
> for a P3E class satellite ?
>
> Regards
> Mark Spencer
> VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
> Mark:
>
> Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching a 
> satellite into a Geosynchronous  Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight of 
> Eagle or P3-E was $8 million.  Today that figure is more like $10 million, 
> though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more accurate 
> figure than this.  Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things 
> prohibitively expensive.  Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the 
> spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past fund 
> raising efforts.
>
> The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40.  Please keep in mind that the money 
> that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for P3-D/AO-40, from 
> 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from individual donors, ARRL 
> matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc.  Other organizations, such as AMSAT-DL 
> and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising efforts as well in support of those 
> aspects of the program that they were handling.   AMSAT also developed the 
> SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as part of P3-D program that became the 
> "frame" that housed P3-D on the launch vehicle.  At that time, we believe we 
> had pretty much "maxed out" what might be raised from within the amateur 
> radio community in North America.  Unfortunately, that considerable 
> fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of the current launch costs.    
> Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community to raise funds of 
> this magnitude, but to do so requires both a non-amateur radio "vision" to 
> what a HEO s!
 at!
>  ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs)  as well as a "Case for 
> Support" that would attract major donors, such as foundations.  To date, we 
> have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations.
>
> Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major 
> inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself 
> (though that also costs "real money" depending upon size and features and 
> whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with 
> P3-D).
>
> So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what 
> AMSAT might be able to "afford" under current circumstances:
>
> The cost to launch a "microsat" (e.g. a 9" x 9" x 9" structure such as AO-51) 
> was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00.  That is why we opted for a 
> 1u cubesat (4" x 4" x 4") back in 2008 as replacement satellite for AO-51-- 
> we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at the time 
> and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a launch that 
> would likely increase in cost of time.
>
> To put this further in perspective, as I recall,  back in 2008 the cost to 
> launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO.  The 
> current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg). 
> The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in 
> cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and 
> others who have "real money" to place cubesat payloads in LEO.  Clearly, as 
> Tony, AA2TX  (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has 
> evolved from a university "novelty" to a standard spacecraft specification.   
> This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in 2011 
> (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for ELaNA 
> grants in order to be able to "afford" launches.  Clearly, it make much more 
> sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft development rather 
> than launches if we can get "others" to support our launch costs.
>
> BTW, "Aviation Week & Space Technology Magazine" had a series of articles in 
> the 30 JUL 12 issue ("Small Satellites:  Doing More with Less") which 
> highlights this evolution, including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will be 
> the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS using the same deployment 
> scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the Vietnamese 
> student  F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week.   Information about 
> TechEdSat may be found here:  
> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/TechEdSat.html
>
> Coupled with the launch costs is the "justification" for launches.  NASA and 
> others (such as the National Science Foundation) will support launch 
> opportunities if the proposal meets THEIR strategic goals.  Consequently, the 
> most effective way to "hitch a ride" is to put something in an amateur radio 
> space frame that meets their expectations, such as a scientific/educational 
> payload and/or provide "educational outreach."    For example:
>
> 1.  ARISSat-1/Kedr deployed by RSC/Energia from the ISS in August 2011 with a 
> student scientific payload developed by Kursk State University.  AMSAT 
> developed ground based software to capture telemetry from both the satellite 
> and the payload, with amateurs forwarding captured data to a central server.  
> ARISSat-1/Kedr was considered to be a "prototype" for deploying student 
> payloads.  Education outreach was also part of our efforts with ARISSat-1, 
> where, for example,  telemetry data is available for student analysis.  
> Whether there are future opportunities for more ARISSat deployments remains 
> to be seen.
>
> 2.  AMSAT-UK developed FunCube (funcube.org.uk) under the model where 
> educational outreach is the justification (to be launched in 2013). The 
> satellite has received financial support from the Radio Communications 
> Foundation and is being developed in collaboration with ISIS-Innovative 
> Solutions in Space BV (a Dutch small satellite company that is a spin-off 
> from Delft University of Technology).   AMSAT-UK is developing ground-based 
> software with an easy-to-use receiver (FunCube Dongle developed by Howard 
> Long, G6LVB) to encourage use of the satellite in the classroom.
>
> 3.  FOX-1 will have a student scientific payload (MEMS Gyro originally 
> developed by Penn State-Erie students) as justification for NASA to pay for 
> our launch under the ELaNA grant.  Ground-based software for capture of 
> satellite telemetry and payload data is also being developed using a central 
> server for data to be forwarded.  AMSAT is also focused on creating education 
> outreach materials focused on Fox-1 that will be appropriate for future 
> missions as well.
>
> 4.  The appointment of Mark Hammond, N8MH as AMSAT's VP-Educational Relations 
> and the subsequent work that he is doing to develop relationships with 
> outside organizations (including ARRL and NASA Education), develop an 
> "educational outreach" capability in support of AMSAT's scientific and 
> education mission, and work to foster support of "STEM" (Science, Technology, 
> Engineering, Mathematics) as part of more traditional engineering work on 
> space craft is in recognition of the fact that we are dependent upon the 
> support of other organizations to be able to afford to fly.  "Education 
> outreach" is the new "cost" (one that AMSAT can hopefully "afford") that we 
> must bear to keep amateur radio in space.
>
> Clearly, it is launch costs that is driving much of what AMSAT can afford to 
> accomplish.  In addition, we must recognize that those that pay for the 
> launch will only do so if the satellite provides a benefit that meets their 
> goals/expectations.    Clearly, future opportunities for placing amateur 
> radio transponders in HEO will be dependent upon finding partners who have a 
> need to place THEIR payload(s) in those orbits AND have the major funding to 
> support the launch.  In essence, that is what AMSAT-DL attempted to do by 
> persuading the German government to fund P3-E as part of a larger mission to 
> Mars.  Unfortunately, their attempts did not pan out.
>
> BTW, we'd be happy to accept your $44.00 to renew your AMSAT membership;  you 
> can renew online at www.amsat.org...   ;-)
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Barry Baines, WD4ASW
> President-AMSAT
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
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-- 
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]

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