I guess I'm trying to ascertain: is there a concrete question you have, or just a bunch of bad points about how the Android ecosystem sucks right now?
If it's the second, everyone agrees it sucks, there's not a good solution. I suppose one thing that Android could have done better from the start was to offer UI modes that would be guaranteed to homogenous across all certified devices. I don't think that I said statistics were a solution to the issue (though apologies if I gave that impression): I meant to merely give the idea that because of Android's fragmentation a good way to get a handle on what you're facing would be to use device install statistics. I never meant to imply that it was in any way a solution. But everyone agrees that fragmentation sucks. Everyone has agreed it sucks since the beginning (even Android 2.0), and people knew it would get *worse*. You have to worry about API levels, screen configurations, hardware configurations, etc... I know of a few groups developing open source test services, that could presumably end up making a "co op" or something: that would definitely give more leeway than traditional expensive test services. (If people would be interested, this would be possible to do in the community right now: just buy a server, write some code to distribute the APKs with a feedback / review system, etc..) Kris On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Omer Gilad <omer.gi...@gmail.com> wrote: > I agree that it's better than nothing. But, since it's a paid service that > has nothing to do with the official SDK, it doesn't come in the SDK's favor > at all. > > The problem appears in much more obvious parts of the SDK than the one I > presented. I can give countless examples on demand and I'm sure others can > too. > > Also, I never even bothered to fix custom ROMs and such - this is really > beyond my scope. > I'm having constant issues with stock, popular devices from Samsung, HTC, > etc. - the ones that get shipped in the millions and dominate the Google > Play statistics. > > As you said, statistics are also a temporary "solution" to the issue - just > focus on workarounds for the most popular buggy devices - mainly the Samsung > Galaxy series and its endless variations. > > On Friday, July 26, 2013 4:33:52 AM UTC+3, Kristopher Micinski wrote: >> >> Your last paragraph is *exactly* what the CTS is all about, but >> obviously if you don't work for google you can't mandate what goes in >> and what does not :-). >> >> I'm not recommending that these services are the solution to >> everyone's problems: but I do contend they get you farther than you >> would be otherwise. Games are particularly hard to test, since GPUs >> vary more widely across devices and aren't part of the most common >> pieces of the SDK. >> >> The fact of the matter is, there are always going to be hacked up ROMs >> running on the market: that's the design decision made by Android. >> The CTS helps get you farther to a holistic / cohesive platform, but >> in the end it's a numbers game: knowing which devices, API levels, >> user bases, countries, etc.. to care about is something the >> experienced developer has to have a handle on. >> >> Kris >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Omer Gilad <omer....@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Yes, I've encountered those services. >> > >> > This is still not a solution. >> > It requires substantial money investment, and in a lot of cases it >> > doesn't >> > give you the ability to debug on those devices. >> > >> > Personal example - I'm developing a game, and we've found (after a >> > friend >> > checked it) that it has major display artifacts on Samsung Galaxy S4. >> > No logs or attempts to remotely resolve the issue helped - so we had to >> > get >> > our hands on the device for a day. >> > It turned out that the device's GPU is buggy, and miscalculates some >> > common >> > shader operations (like matrix multiplication). >> > There's no remote testing platform in the world that can assist you in >> > resolving issues like that. >> > >> > The issue is at the core, and must be solved at a design and attitude >> > level >> > - devices like that SHOULD NOT be allowed to run Google Play apps (and >> > of >> > course, they should be deprived of their certification), until the >> > vendor >> > fixes those issues. >> > >> > >> > On Friday, July 26, 2013 3:27:49 AM UTC+3, Kristopher Micinski wrote: >> >> >> >> There are potential solutions, but in practice it's a constant battle. >> >> Certainly there are people that provide internet based test services >> >> that test your app on huge numbers of devices for a subscription based >> >> fee. >> >> >> >> Kris >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Omer Gilad <omer....@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > I've found that even the biggest app developers like Skype, Gameloft, >> >> > etc. >> >> > have device issues, and they don't look in such a good shape. >> >> > Just scan the reviews of any super-popular Android app, and you can >> >> > see >> >> > the >> >> > same disease... "This app doesn't even work, it sucks, and I PAID FOR >> >> > IT!" >> >> > (from some crappy device). >> >> > >> >> > Obviously, those bigger developers have the budget and capacity to >> >> > own >> >> > 100's >> >> > or Android devices and run a big QA department. >> >> > What is an independent developer, or even a small startup supposed to >> >> > do? >> >> > >> >> > The "solution" that me and my partners decided on is to aggressively >> >> > filter >> >> > down any device that gives us bad ratings in Google Play (from the >> >> > developer >> >> > console). >> >> > That feels like taking painkillers when you have a broken leg. >> >> > >> >> > On Friday, July 26, 2013 2:47:49 AM UTC+3, Kristopher Micinski wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> This is basically what the CTS enforcement is attempting to rectify: >> >> >> but it's obviously not a perfect solution. >> >> >> >> >> >> Many small developers just accept this as fact, and handle only the >> >> >> API. Bigger developers are forced to deal with the real problems, >> >> >> and >> >> >> then it's a matter of extensive knowledge, testing, metaprogramming, >> >> >> etc... >> >> >> >> >> >> Kris >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Omer Gilad <omer....@gmail.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > .I am wondering how developers here are dealing with the fact that >> >> >> > there >> >> >> > are >> >> >> > 1000's of devices out there, some of them running your >> >> >> > applications >> >> >> > in >> >> >> > very >> >> >> > broken ways >> >> >> > .I keep running into these kind of issues again and again for the >> >> >> > past 3 >> >> >> > years, and to be honest, I'm fed up with it >> >> >> > .I've decided to move to iOS development, and the only way to >> >> >> > convince >> >> >> > me >> >> >> > otherwise is to give me a decent, reliable way of dealing with >> >> >> > fragmentation >> >> >> > >> >> >> > So what do you do when you develop a game, for example, and try to >> >> >> > create a >> >> >> > high-quality user experience on Google Play? >> >> >> > Do you do your QA on 50 different devices? 100? 1000? >> >> >> > Or do you just shoot blindly and hope that it works, or wait for >> >> >> > users >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > send you bug reports? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To make it clear, I'm not talking about "official" fragmentation. >> >> >> > I don't talk about different screen sizes, densities, features, OS >> >> >> > versions >> >> >> > and so on. >> >> >> > I talk about the "unofficial" fragmentation. The fact that most >> >> >> > devices, >> >> >> > even the popular ones from the big companies like Samsung, HTC, >> >> >> > Motorola, LG >> >> >> > and so on, contain tons of implementation bugs that prevent apps >> >> >> > from >> >> >> > working correctly. >> >> >> > I'm talking about the fact that you can call a certain simple API, >> >> >> > test >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > on a stock Android ROM (like on Nexus 4), and then have your >> >> >> > application >> >> >> > crash on some Samsung, that decided to break the implementation >> >> >> > because >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > some customization. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > How can people stand that? >> >> >> > How is it possible to write code, when the machine that executes >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > is >> >> >> > completely broken in unexpected ways? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I'm really fed up with it. >> >> >> > About 50% of my Android development time is wasted on babysitting >> >> >> > broken >> >> >> > devices. >> >> >> > I'm waiting for an official Google response about this, and what >> >> >> > have >> >> >> > you >> >> >> > been doing in all those years to fix that. >> >> >> > I've heard about things like "conformance tests" for devices and >> >> >> > so >> >> >> > on, >> >> >> > but >> >> >> > the reality is far from acceptable in this area. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ,Looking forward for helpful responses >> >> >> > Omer >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >> > Groups "Android Developers" group. >> >> >> > To post to this group, send email to android-d...@googlegroups.com >> >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> >> > android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> >> >> > For more options, visit this group at >> >> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en >> >> >> > --- >> >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >> > Groups >> >> >> > "Android Developers" group. >> >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> >> > send >> >> >> > an >> >> >> > email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups "Android Developers" group. >> >> > To post to this group, send email to android-d...@googlegroups.com >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> > android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> >> > For more options, visit this group at >> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en >> >> > --- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "Android Developers" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> > send >> >> > an >> >> > email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups "Android Developers" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to android-d...@googlegroups.com >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en >> > --- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "Android Developers" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > an >> > email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > >> > > > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Android Developers" group. > To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Android Developers" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Android Developers" group. 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