This set of minutes covers design team meetings from: 2017-03-09,
and includes discussions from IETF98 (and hackathon) and IETF99.
The previous (draft) minutes are at:

Raw minutes can be found at:

We no longer use the anima-bootstrap list, btw.

We had best results using, but at times it did not
work, but Max's personal webex was sufficiently webrtc to compensate.

Meetings occured on:
     2017-03-14: max, kent, mcr, m.behringer
     2017-03-21: mcr, kent,max
     2017-03-25: Hackathon
     2017-04-18: mcr, max, (others, unrecorded)
     2017-04-25: mcr, peter, mbehringer, kent
     2017-05-02: mcr, Michael Behringer
     2017-05-09: max, Michael Behringer, mcr, kent
     2017-05-16: mcr, max (joining), peter,
     2017-05-23: mcr, toerless, kent, peter, max
     2017-05-30: mcr, toerless, max
     2017-06-02: mcr, toerless
     2017-06-06: mcr, toerless, max, michaelbehringer, kent
     2016-06-13: not sure if we met
     2017-06-20: mcr, toerless, kent (joining)
     2017-06-27: mcr, kent, max (coming in), toerless, peter
     July 4th, etc. prep for IETF99
     2017-07-25: kent, mcr, max, toerless,
     2017-08-01: mcr, max, kent
     2017-08-08: mcr, max, kent, toerless

Executive summary:
   1) no more discussion about revocation of vouchers; preference for
      short-expiry vouchers with easy renewals.
   2) Enumeration attack against the MASA audit log is not protected against

* there was a hackathon on vouchers at the IETF98 (Chicago) Hackathon.
  We had minimal interaction between a voucher request and a voucher among a
  Registrar and a MASA using pkcs7 signed JSON.

* Pledge and Registrar (really all) SHOULD be tolerant (ignore) PEM headers
     * around base64 encoded certificates?
     * Base64 decoding SHOULD be tolerant (ignore) line breaks and white space.
     * Is there a normative reference for this that we can point to to ensure 
this works?

* The Pledge voucher response validation needs to explicitely state that the
  nonce MAY be empty (removed by the Registrar).

* Clarify that the voucher request is just anything that is parsable as a 
  according to the voucher document. every single field in it is a *request* by 
the registrar
  and the server MUST NOT simply sign the request and return it. The MASA MAY 
read the values
  in the request to inform the MASA of policy requests by the client.

* Max experiemented post-hackathon with JWT, and found that it was rather
  easy to do/use (2017-04-18).

* 2017-04-18, around this time it became clear that:
     The Registrar then signs this and sends it to the MASA to be turned into a 
      A voucher request is a voucher that is not signed by the MASA.
      A voucher request MUST be signed by the Registrar. This is equivalent
        to the current pkcs7 signing mandate.
      A new thing: A voucher request MAY be signed by the Pledge.
        * con: additional crypto operation by the pledge
        * pro: proof to the masa of physical possession
        * An option to be discussed.

* Another new thing: A voucher MAY include a "previous form of the voucher
   request" sub-field. e.g. a JSON of the full previously signed
   voucher. e.g. we add to the YANG model a field that could be a full JSON
   etc voucher; which itself might have been signed. Thus:

* SIDE NOTE: verification of the TLS client cert as being the same as the
  voucher request might be(!?) assumed in the current 7.2 text. Two reasons for
     * - we avoid having to deal with replay attacks
     * - and the domain CA cert isn't sent in the TLS handshake but is sent
         in the signature header ("pkcs7" or "x5c").

* Max: recap of list is that we need a definitive form for the voucher 
request.... "it's just a voucher" ,
  Max: signed certificate requests mean that the registrar can not change it,
  and this has caused a mess.

* (updating a yang module)
      o  A "mandatory" statement may be removed or changed from "true" to

   ACTIONs from 2017-04-25:
     * 1) add version field to the voucher
     * 2) define voucher request in BRSKI (as a voucher)
     * 3) define any additional fields in BRSKI:

* 2017-05-02, mbehringer and (maybe max) mcr go through EDNOTES together

     * Is there a relationship between the TLS Server Certificate of the
       MASA, and the Issuer Certificate from the IDevID.
     * Cases:
     *  - pledge contains URL of MASA
     *  - step 1: registrar follows URL (default)
     *  - option 1: redirect: should it be allowed? (if not, cannot deploy 
anti-DDOS re-direct)
     *  - option 2: manual override of URL: should it be allowed?

     * Tentatively: Neither option 1 or 2 have an impact on security 
("stealing" a device).
     * HTTP/2, TLS upgrade.
     * Can/should the registrar connect to MASA, online to the TLS connection
       to the Pledge, to get the certificate chain to validate the pledge?

* 2017-05-09
     ACTION: Need normative language that the registrar<->MASA
   communication is secured using a "web pki"

* Going to JWT discussion. Discussion of Kent's email from may2:
  about JWS and the like.

* 2017-05-16: we dealt with email/review from Sheng of the voucher document,
  and acted on many items.    There are emails on the list dealing with the

  **Continued on 2017-05-19 (Friday) using Max's personal webex.**

* 2017-05-23: continued to edit voucher document.

* we then began to deal with unsolicited rewrite from Toerless.
   For Toerless:

* 2017-05-30: max, Michael Behringer, Toerless Eckert
  We continued to deal with the rewrite, absorbing as much text as we could
  until we ran into technical protocol changes in the middle.
  We Dealt with many of the questions marked "Qx" below.

  As the rewrite changed how the protocol was presented, back to how it was
  before -04, and we had just rewritten it to be different the rest of the
  changes were not accepted.

   Q1: Is there any statement that the MASA can be optional, eg: is it
   clear what would
       need to be implemented on pledge and registrar for pledges that do
        not require a MASA ?

   " A Registrar MAY be configured to
      ignore the history of the device but it is RECOMMENDED that this
      be configured if hardware assisted NEA [RFC5209] is supported."
   4.2.  New Entity security reductions
   "   The Pledge MAY have an operational mode where it skips Voucher
      validation one time.  For example if a physical button is depressed
      during the bootstrapping operation.  This can be useful if the
      service is unavailable.  This behavior SHOULD be available via local
      configuration or physical presence methods to ensure new entities
      always be deployed even when autonomic methods fail.  This allows
      unsecured imprint.
      It is RECOMMENDED that this only be available if hardware assisted
      NEA [RFC5209] is supported."

   Q2: Is there any statement how a device without an IDevID could be
   used, pledge/registrar ?
   4.3.  Registrar security reductions
      2.  A registrar MAY choose to accept devices that claim a unique
          identity without the benefit of authenticating that claimed
          identity.  This could occur when the Pledge does not include an
          X.509 IDevID factory installed credential.  New Entities without
          an X.509 IDevID credential MAY form the Section 3.2 request
          the Section 3.3 format to ensure the Pledge's serial number
          information is provided to the Registar (this includes the
          IDevIDAuthorityKeyIdentifier value which would be statically
          configured on the Pledge).  The Pledge MAY refuse to provide a
          TLS client certificate (as one is not available).  The Pledge
          SHOULD support HTTP-based or certificate-less TLS authentication
          as described in EST RFC7030 section 3.3.2.  A Registrar MUST NOT
          accept unauthenticated New Entities unless it has been
          to do so by an administrator that has verified that only
          new entities can communicate with a Registrar (presumably via a
          physically secured perimeter).

   Q3: Is there a list of assignments needed ?
       Page 13: id-mod-MASAURLExtn2016 - who assigns this ?
   5.  IANA Considerations
   5.1.  PKIX Registry
      This document requests a number for id-mod-MASAURLExtn2016(TBD) from
      the pkix(7) id-mod(0) Registry.  [[EDNOTE: fix names]]
      This document requests a number from the id-pe registry for id-pe-
      masa-url.  XXX

   N2: "storing an X.509 root certificate".
   Does this need to be a "root" certificate ?
   Consider the most likely simple enterprise or SP deployment of BRSKI.
   Organization has some root-CA. for the purpose of a particular ANI, a
   sub-CA is created, which
   becomes the assigning CA that the registrar uses. The root-CA itself is
   likely never online
   except when both Data Centers with the asigning CAs burn down.
   In these environments, it is not suffficient to only store on the
   pledge the root-CA, because
   that root-CA will also assign other subCA that create certificates, and
   those certificates
   would not be valid for our ANI.
   So, the pledge could either just store the assigning-CA, which becomes
   a virtual root CA,
   and if it burns down the ANI is frozen (no new pledges possible,
   re-enroll whole ANI with
   new CA), or the pledges need to store the CA-chain with root-CA and
   assigning CA. WHich is the
   best solution because it allows revocation/renewal of assigning CA in
   desaster cases.
   I did not modify any text, but i am worried about this problem for
   actual deployments so i would
   like to make sure we have documented an actual working solution.
   Agreed: Remove the word "root".
   TBD: Move example of root CA and assigning CA into voucher document
   The current text of the voucher document is (description of the
   relevant field in the yang module):
         leaf-list pinned-domain-cert {
           type binary;
           min-elements 1;
             "An X.509 v3 certificate structure as specified by RFC 5280,
              Section 4 encoded using the ASN.1 distinguished encoding
              rules (DER), as specified in ITU-T X.690.
              This certificate is used by a pledge to trust a public key
              infrastructure, in order to verify a domain certificate.

   In BRSKI terms: "in order to verify that the registrar is a member of
   the domain by verifying it has a certificate that can be verified using

  In BRSKI -06 it indicates:
   "The maximum
      lifetime of the voucher issued SHOULD NOT exceed the lifetime of the
      Registrar's revocation validation (for example if the Registrar
      revocation status is indicated in a CRL that is valid for two weeks
      then that is an appropriate lifetime for the voucher)."

   I think this is ok. The voucher document doesn't include this because
   it is a MASA behavior discussion.

   N3: The intro says "and local access control lists. The Pledge
   What "and local access control lists" does this talk about ? If nobody
   knows, maybe delete ?
   Suggest: (eg: whitelist or blacklist on registrar).
     * -      lists. The Pledge actions derive from a cryptographically
     * +      lists (administratively defined white or black lists). The
       Pledge actions derive from a cryptographically protected

   N4: I think the "Other Bootstrapping Approaches" is also a level of
   brackground information that
   hurts the "ease of digestion" flow for the reader, so i have moved it
   into an appendix and left
   a breadcrump in the intro section. Otherwise unchanged.
   Not clear if we want to accept this change at all. MCR made it less
   destructive by moving it to the last appendix in Toerless's suggested
   Here the git best practices of individual commits (via pull requests)
   would be helpful.
   N5: "In many target applications, the systems involved are ".... this
   in secion 1.3 is i think quite crucial and one of the biggest benefits
   of BRSKI
   and a great reasoning why we have new complex elements like proxy and
   MASA, but i
   think it is more suggestive than descriptive and raises more questions
   it answers. And even tthat is already divesting the readers attention
   by being
   in the beginning of the document. This topic IMHO deserves a more
   thorough explanation.
   I have suggested an appendix section "Flexible SKU management" that
   tries to do this.
   I think it is appropriate for an appendix, because it seems that to
   enable this functionality,
   we would need some more functionality eg: across ACP, in MASA and so
   TODO: Change text to indicate the overall property is an ANIMA feature
   where both BRSKI and ACP need to collaborate to improbe ove existing
   N6: The "Scope of the solution" section is really a discussion about
   the applicability to
   constrained environments. This IMHO also is not necessary to be at the
   top, so i also moved
   it into an appendix and left a breadcrump in the introduction. Also
   changed the name
   to "Applicability to constrained environments" as this is more
   descriptive of the actual content.

This diff shows the text being changed/absorbed:

   at end of 2017-06-02:
   at the end of 2017-06-06:


* Pushed voucher document to address last call comments.

   ACTION: max to write up description of proposed voucher and BRSKI
   changes to WGLC thread.
     * - discussion about proximity

*  BRSKI will import the YANG voucher model, and will refine it to produce a 
   Will use "deviation", not refine. [see

   ACTION: Kent to produce some suggested text for the 'voucher
      request' so we can evaluate

* We believe that the VR being signed by the same identity as the
  TLS Client Certificate.

     * The MASA verifies that the Registrar making the claim is the same
       registrar that the pledge sees. This ensures that the asokan etc
       attack is not occuring. It is not a freshness check.
     * What is verified is: The pledge and the MASA are seeing the same

* ACTION: mcr to write up concern for security considerations, and to
       explain why the above solves the problem.

* Added text ref RFC4941 temporary addresses (s3.3):

* Found final resolution for Content-Type in Auguest,
  will be application/pkcs7-mime; smime-type=voucher
  (voucher is new definition for IANA)


   OPEN QUESTION: do what do we say about the 'content-transfer-encoding'?
      Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

   smime-type is originally defined in RFC3851 but the more recent
   reference is RFC5751, RFC7030, 3851 etc. But RFC7114 defines the IANA

   For unsigned vouchers, we discussed if we should be using
   application/json, or something else.  We concluded that we'd use

Michael Richardson <>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

Attachment: signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Anima mailing list

Reply via email to