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OK, I now understand that these discussions were/are *not* a good new thing, after all. In particular because of what Snehal S. wrote, as quoted below, I retract my earlier recommendation that this be tried elsewhere. Clearly, no real progress has been achieved, perhaps not even intended; on the contrary, just another distraction of a type infamous since long, here in Sweden too, for instance. I'm forwarding this also to some other lists. Rolf M. Malmö, Sweden At 21:19 2002-06-24 -0700, you (Dave Kersting <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote: > If Israel's supporters insist on maintaining its identity as an >officially "Jewish" state, if they insist on perpetuating the violent >expulsion of ethnically unsuited Palestinians, they must be expected to >suppress reasonable discussion, through shouting, slanders, etc, rather than >allow their violent racism to be calmly and reasonably identified for what >it is. > > Israel's racists would have us define a reasonable dialogue as one which >helps them pretend violent state-racism is not violent state-racism. > >Dave Kersting > > > > > Lest anyone get the wrong idea, these discussions are not being attended by > > the majority of pro-Palestinian activists who see these discussions as > > distractions and deliberate attempts to sideline activism in favor of > > "consciousness-raising" and "navel-gazing." These discussions have done > > little to change actual policy and even less to reduce the venom of the > > zionists on campus against the pro-Palestinian activists. I encourage > > people at other schools who are genuinely interested in Palestinian > > liberation to treat these dialogues with suspicion. > > > > Snehal S. > > UC Berkeley > > > > > >> From: Rolf Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED], > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Subject: eFreePalestine! Re: Berkeley Leading Change > >> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:24:04 +0200 > >> > >> One thing in the below I don't agree with: That rallies, "flag- > >> waving", "finger-pointing" and taking sides would be "obsolete". > >> It certainly is not, quite on the contrary. > >> > >> But this kind of discussions and dialogue reported here as > >> being engaged in at Berkeley University, USA, certainly is > >> a (new) good thing. It does not rule out that other, and in my > >> opinion should be tried at universities (etc) here in Sweden > >> (etc) too. So this goes to some other lists as well. > >> > >> Rolf M., Malmö, Sweden > >> > >> At 04:21 2002-06-24 +0000, you (amazonmama2000 > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote, to the Free Palestine > >> list: > >> > >>> At the University of California, Berkeley -- and increasingly on > >>> other college and high school campuses -- students are discovering > >>> healing Dialogue to replace obsolete rallies, flag-waving, finger- > >>> pointing, and "taking sides" that increase alienation and fan the > >>> flames of war. > >>> > >>> Jewish and Arab students are not waiting for governments, > >>> politicians, and institutions to change the world. Remarkable young > >>> women and men are taking it on themselves to begin breaking down > >>> walls to build long-awaited, authentic human relationships. > >>> The newly-gathered students at Cal call themselves "Salaam-Shalom." > >>> They learn from one another, each expanding each one's own knowledge, > >>> discovering together new compassion and creativity. > >>> > >>> For more information about Salaam-Shalom at U.C. Berkeley, send > >>> e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] encourage other campuses to follow > >>> this path. > >>> ================================================ > >>> Published in The Daily Californian -Tuesday, June 18, 2002 > >>> http://www.dailycal.org/article.asp?id=8806 > >>> > >>> Group Finds Discourse on Middle East Conflict: > >>> Students Emphasize 'Friends' to Build Relations > >>> > >>> By EMMA SCHWARTZ > >>> Contributing Writer > >>> > >>> Amid shouts of hatred fueled by the Middle East conflict, one UC > >>> Berkeley student group seeking to represent a variety of perspectives > >>> calls for a dialogue of understanding. > >>> > >>> "Friends" is a common buzzword for members of Salaam Shalom, a group > >>> that aims to build peaceful relations between Israelis, Palestinians, > >>> Arabs, and Jews on campus. "People say dialogue is easy, but it's not > >>> easy to tear your soul inside out," says group member Judy Gussman. > >>> The group's first meeting, held at the end of the spring semester, > >>> was at times heated as the group tried to make sense of violence > >>> through open dialogue. "It was a little tense," says Laura Haddad, a > >>> Salaam Shalom member. "But as someone at the meeting put it, if it > >>> weren't a little tense we wouldn't have been getting anything done. > >>> However, if we hadn't been friends first, we wouldn't have been able > >>> to hold that discussion." > >>> > >>> The group has yet to stage an open forum on serious issues > >>> surrounding the conflict. For now, the students focus on forging > >>> friendships between members. "We haven't had a big discussion because > >>> we believe we have to know each other first," Haddad says. > >>> The first dialogue, which was just for the group organizers, asked > >>> members what brought them to the group in an attempt to make the > >>> discussion personal rather than political. "It has involved a great > >>> deal of soul-searching of things you were raised with," Gussman > >>> says. "They all have the ability to step back from that and look at > >>> their world in a new way." > >>> > >>> The group began as an attempt to add a peaceful perspective to the > >>> campus debate on the Middle East conflict. "I was distressed by two > >>> things," says UC Berkeley graduate student Roger Studley. "First, > >>> there is a lack of any communication between people from different > >>> camps and groups. Secondly, everything on campus is one group > >>> shouting at another and shouting back. It's very political, noisy, > >>> and nobody is sitting down and talking to one another." > >>> > >>> Many members of the group joined out of frustration with the apparent > >>> lack of dialogue between already existing groups who have a stake in > >>> the conflict. "I got involved because I noticed the intense > >>> polarization on this issue," says Robin Baral, a UC Berkeley > >>> student. "I've been here long enough and involved in enough activism > >>> to know what happens. I felt like the politics had gotten in the way > >>> with people getting to know each other." > >>> > >>> Haddad says the group offers an alternative route for those who don't > >>> feel a place in either of the two major political groups, the > >>> Students for Justice in Palestine and the Israel Action Committee. > >>> Students say that while they have no illusions that they are going to > >>> solve the conflict, they believe a resolution cannot be reached > >>> without discussion. > >>> > >>> "We take seriously that it is important to understand someone else's > >>> view as much as your own," Studley says. "We believe that the first > >>> thing you have to do is get to know an individual. Once you have > >>> that, you are much less likely to shout and will be able to > >>> understand someone's opinion with further complexity rather than as a > >>> political stripe." > >>> > >>> Students from Muslim and Jewish student groups said that Salaam > >>> Shalom has great potential to clear up misunderstandings. "I think > >>> this is a step in the right direction," says Salman Alam, a board > >>> member of the Muslim Student Association. "Misinformation about some > >>> of the main issues causes people to jump to wrong conclusions about > >>> each other. Peaceful, respectful discussion is the best way to clear > >>> up some of these misunderstandings," he added. > >>> > >>> Other students remain hopeful and say dialogue could form an > >>> important middle ground for students. "The only way to break down > >>> stereotypes is to get to know people. If they can get a dialogue > >>> going, it would be the only place on campus where that is happening," > >>> said Rebekah Stern, an active member of Berkeley Hillel. > >>> > >>> Salaam Shalom members hope their group will be a model for students > >>> on the Berkeley campus and all over the country. Group members say > >>> they have received e-mails from students across the country who are > >>> beginning to form similar groups. "Without being able to talk, you're > >>> going to be stuck," Studley says. "Modestly, we can demonstrate this > >>> approach. If somehow that winds up making other people who are more > >>> important in the game take notice, that's a good thing." > >>> > >>> Haddad says that they plan to set up a series of discussions in the > >>> fall where students break into small groups with a facilitator. "It's > >>> really in small groups where people will get to know each other," > >>> Haddad says. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> www.FreePalestine.com No Peace Without Occupation Free PALESTINE! > >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> Blessed are the Peacemakers NOT the Warmakers! > >>> Chronic INJUSTICE is the ROOT of TERRORISM! > >>> www.FreePalestineCampaign.org Be a Peacemaker in PALESTINE! > >>> Fighting TERRORISM while AIDING OCCUPATION is Moronic! > >>> END TERRORISM by ENDING Israeli OCCUPATION Stupid! > >>> SHARON NOW = MILOSEVIC Then = HITLER IN 1942! > >>> Peace Only in a Legislatively DEzIONIZED Secular State! > >>> Aiding Israeli OCCUPATION = Aiding TERRORISM! > >>> Where Does Our Simplistic Absolutist President Stand?! > >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> www.Badil.org The RIGHT of RETURN! > >>> www.IndictSharon.net Indict the BUTCHER! > >>> www.PMWatch.org PALESTINE MEDIA WATCH! > >>> www.PalestineRemembered.com PALESTINE for DUMMIES! > >>> www.Al-Awda.org/WB_Fund.htm Give to Plundered PALESTINE! > >>> www.InternationalAnswer.org Act Not to STOP WAR and RACISM > >>> www.Al-Awda.org/petition.htm END zIONIST Profit from OCCUPATION! > >>> www.RamallahOnline.com Our Occupied Home in Ramallah PALESTINE! > >>> www.groups.Yahoo.com/group/FreePalestine/messages ARCHIVES! > >>> www.PalestineChronicle.com News and Views from PALESTINE! > >>> www.DocumentaryPhotographs.com Pictures from PALESTINE! > >>> www.PalestineMonitor.org Monitor PALESTINE! > >>> www.WRMEA.com zIONIST-Free MEDIA! > >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> A Mind WORD is Stronger than a Hand sWORD! ~ FORWARD to the Wilderness! > >>> FreePalestine! is America's Secular WILDERNESS VOICE of PALESTINE!* > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] SUBSCRIBE NOW :-) > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe :-( > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Speak up on FreePalestine! > >>> Views expressed are the author's only* > >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >> > >> > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> www.FreePalestine.com No Peace Without Occupation Free PALESTINE! > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> Blessed are the Peacemakers NOT the Warmakers! > >> Chronic INJUSTICE is the ROOT of TERRORISM! > >> www.FreePalestineCampaign.org Be a Peacemaker in PALESTINE! > >> Fighting TERRORISM while AIDING OCCUPATION is Moronic! > >> END TERRORISM by ENDING Israeli OCCUPATION Stupid! > >> SHARON NOW = MILOSEVIC Then = HITLER IN 1942! > >> Peace Only in a Legislatively DEzIONIZED Secular State! > >> Aiding Israeli OCCUPATION = Aiding TERRORISM! > >> Where Does Our Simplistic Absolutist President Stand?! > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> www.Badil.org The RIGHT of RETURN! > >> www.IndictSharon.net Indict the BUTCHER! > >> www.PMWatch.org PALESTINE MEDIA WATCH! > >> www.PalestineRemembered.com PALESTINE for DUMMIES! > >> www.Al-Awda.org/WB_Fund.htm Give to Plundered PALESTINE! > >> www.InternationalAnswer.org Act Not to STOP WAR and RACISM > >> www.Al-Awda.org/petition.htm END zIONIST Profit from OCCUPATION! > >> www.RamallahOnline.com Our Occupied Home in Ramallah PALESTINE! > >> www.groups.Yahoo.com/group/FreePalestine/messages ARCHIVES! > >> www.PalestineChronicle.com News and Views from PALESTINE! > >> www.DocumentaryPhotographs.com Pictures from PALESTINE! > >> www.PalestineMonitor.org Monitor PALESTINE! > >> www.WRMEA.com zIONIST-Free MEDIA! > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> A Mind WORD is Stronger than a Hand sWORD! ~ FORWARD to the Wilderness! > >> FreePalestine! is America's Secular WILDERNESS VOICE of PALESTINE!* > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] SUBSCRIBE NOW :-) > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe :-( > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Speak up on FreePalestine! > >> Views expressed are the author's only* > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > www.FreePalestine.com No Peace Without Occupation Free PALESTINE! > > ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Blessed are the Peacemakers NOT the Warmakers! > > Chronic INJUSTICE is the ROOT of TERRORISM! > > www.FreePalestineCampaign.org Be a Peacemaker in PALESTINE! > > Fighting TERRORISM while AIDING OCCUPATION is Moronic! > > END TERRORISM by ENDING Israeli OCCUPATION Stupid! > > SHARON NOW = MILOSEVIC Then = HITLER IN 1942! > > Peace Only in a Legislatively DEzIONIZED Secular State! > > Aiding Israeli OCCUPATION = Aiding TERRORISM! > > Where Does Our Simplistic Absolutist President Stand?! > > ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > www.Badil.org The RIGHT of RETURN! > > www.IndictSharon.net Indict the BUTCHER! > > www.PMWatch.org PALESTINE MEDIA WATCH! > > www.PalestineRemembered.com PALESTINE for DUMMIES! > > www.Al-Awda.org/WB_Fund.htm Give to Plundered PALESTINE! > > www.InternationalAnswer.org Act Not to STOP WAR and RACISM > > www.Al-Awda.org/petition.htm END zIONIST Profit from OCCUPATION! > > www.RamallahOnline.com Our Occupied Home in Ramallah PALESTINE! > > www.groups.Yahoo.com/group/FreePalestine/messages ARCHIVES! > > www.PalestineChronicle.com News and Views from PALESTINE! > > www.DocumentaryPhotographs.com Pictures from PALESTINE! > > www.PalestineMonitor.org Monitor PALESTINE! > > www.WRMEA.com zIONIST-Free MEDIA! > > ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > A Mind WORD is Stronger than a Hand sWORD! ~ FORWARD to the Wilderness! > > FreePalestine! is America's Secular WILDERNESS VOICE of PALESTINE!* > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] SUBSCRIBE NOW :-) > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe :-( > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Speak up on FreePalestine! > > Views expressed are the author's only* > > ++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > >++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ >www.FreePalestine.com No Peace Without Occupation Free PALESTINE! >++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ >Blessed are the Peacemakers NOT the Warmakers! >Chronic INJUSTICE is the ROOT of TERRORISM! >www.FreePalestineCampaign.org Be a Peacemaker in PALESTINE! >Fighting TERRORISM while AIDING OCCUPATION is Moronic! >END TERRORISM by ENDING Israeli OCCUPATION Stupid! >SHARON NOW = MILOSEVIC Then = HITLER IN 1942! >Peace Only in a Legislatively DEzIONIZED Secular State! >Aiding Israeli OCCUPATION = Aiding TERRORISM! >Where Does Our Simplistic Absolutist President Stand?! >++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ >www.Badil.org The RIGHT of RETURN! >www.IndictSharon.net Indict the BUTCHER! >www.PMWatch.org PALESTINE MEDIA WATCH! >www.PalestineRemembered.com PALESTINE for DUMMIES! >www.Al-Awda.org/WB_Fund.htm Give to Plundered PALESTINE! >www.InternationalAnswer.org Act Not to STOP WAR and RACISM >www.Al-Awda.org/petition.htm END zIONIST Profit from OCCUPATION! >www.RamallahOnline.com Our Occupied Home in Ramallah PALESTINE! >www.groups.Yahoo.com/group/FreePalestine/messages ARCHIVES! >www.PalestineChronicle.com News and Views from PALESTINE! >www.DocumentaryPhotographs.com Pictures from PALESTINE! >www.PalestineMonitor.org Monitor PALESTINE! >www.WRMEA.com zIONIST-Free MEDIA! >++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ >A Mind WORD is Stronger than a Hand sWORD! ~ FORWARD to the Wilderness! >FreePalestine! is America's Secular WILDERNESS VOICE of PALESTINE!* >[EMAIL PROTECTED] SUBSCRIBE NOW :-) >[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe :-( >[EMAIL PROTECTED] Speak up on FreePalestine! >Views expressed are the author's only* >++++++++++++++++++++++ eFreePalestine! ++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Your use of Yahoo! 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