Hi Chris: *Below are the examples of misinformation, I didn’t reply to you initially on this subject because it is irrelevant to the discussion here.*
On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 at 17:03 Christopher Hawker <ch...@thesysadmin.dev> wrote: > Lu, > > I am absolutely gobsmacked at how you can still be hung up on the rhetoric > that Paul Wilson was the sole director of APNIC for 25 years when it has > been explained countless times how corporate law works in Australia. While > yes, on paper according to ASIC records he may have been the sole *formally > appointed* director of APNIC Pty Ltd, the EC still served (until recently > changed when they became formally appointed directors) as de facto > directors, who held the same powers as did Paul. This meant that they still > had the same legal powers as Paul did. The definition of a *de facto* director > is "A de facto director is a person who acts in the position of a director > of a company but has not been officially appointed"[1]. > > IPv4 address registrations do not have a collective value in excess of 200 > billion dollars. There are currently 3,702,258,176 usable IP addresses > [2][3]. Based on an average price per-IP of $38.13 USD for a /23 > allocation[4], this calculates to (approximately) $141,167,104,250 USD. > Yes, while scarcity may play a factor, it is not the sole factor. It all > comes down to "supply and demand" and some might even argue that this plays > a higher role in secondary market conditions - more resources than what > people need, the price drops. Less resources than what people want, and the > price goes up. > *200B are indicative value, of course actual value move up and down like any market, you are arguing for the sake of arguing, but not getting the point.* > In your remarks regarding AFRINIC, you state that "Its directors violate > the bylaws and disregard entire membership" isn't provable. If you're going > to cite an example, do so properly and not just write "Multiple exampes in > the conduct of AFRINIC elections over the past decade as well as other > board actions". This significantly decreases your credibility. To use your > own articles, it wasn't "management", it was one individual who was the > co-founder and a systems engineer. > *Simply disinformation, Ernest was not a system engineer, he was the senior policy person report directly to the CEO.* *While there is no official ranking among AFRINIC staff members, his seniority and the fact he is working as part of CEO office often he being seen as No.2 of the company.* Further, making remarks such as "the ex-CEO even claims to have power to > monitor the entire continent's internet and police its content" and > referencing back to your own website (the home page of all places) is > laughable. Please provide proper and impartial references to websites not > owned or under the control of you or retract your remarks. Nothing on Cloud > Innovation's website can be trusted. > *Cloud innovation website shows original letter sent by AFRINIC a request monitoring all it’s IPs and report monitoring data back to AFRINIC, link provided below:* *https://regmedia.co.uk/2023/03/26/supplied_afrinic_to_ci_letter_27_aug_2021.pdf <https://regmedia.co.uk/2023/03/26/supplied_afrinic_to_ci_letter_27_aug_2021.pdf>* *You yet again separating disinformation.* > I don't believe it's just some people here that blame you for what is > going on with AFRINIC, I believe it's a rather large group of people. I say > I believe because I cannot speak for others, and I do not represent to do > so. Likening what happened to AFRINIC being your fault to a doctor > identifying cancer is such a poor analogy. Again, nothing you share can be > accepted or believed without third-party independent verification due to > your track record. > *Who make you the god to demand members not to accept or believe what shared.* *I can say the exact same about you, just in this letter, you have demonstrated nothing said by you is true.* > > You claim that Eddy Kayihura wanted you to do three things: > > 1. "Report every change in IP usage and rejustify each time," > > Requesting justification from time to time for IP resource usage is common > practice with RIRs. This is to ensure that they are still being used in > line with the original justification stated. I highly doubt that AFRINIC > would request usage down to a per-IP level and if they were to do so, I > would only expect this to occur if they were conducting due diligence on > your justification due to suspected false or lack of information being > provided. > *No. AFRINIC request down to per IP level, original request can be find in cloud innovation site.* *You don’t think in face of FACT.* > 1. "Use IP addresses within the AFRINIC Service Region" > > Eddy Kayihura's reliance on clause 6.1 of the AFRINIC Bylaws > (Constitution) 2020 is valid. When you (via Cloud Innovation Ltd) became a > member of AFRINIC, you agreed to be bound by its corporate constitution and > by-laws. Clause 6.1 clearly reads "Subject to the other provisions of this > Article, membership shall be open to: any Person who is ... providing > services in the African region"[5]. I've cited the by-laws that were in > place when your delegations were issued and show you are in clear breach. > To further solidify this argument, you also agreed to the current by-laws > as they stand when they were amended back in December 2016. Your use of IP > resources outside of the AFRINIC service region is in clear breach of the > by-laws you agreed to. > *First, management of IP address is outside of prerogative a RIR, certainly outside a bylaw, since bylaw are not made by the community, it should have no rights to say where IP to be used.* *Secondly, even we by this bylaw, it only require member located in the service region and provide service in the service region, it does not, require member provide service exclusively in the region.* *Cloud innovation located in the service region and proving service in the service region.* *So you are again separate disinformation.* > > > 1. "Monitor every host in its IP range and report past 5 years of > monitoring data to AFRINIC" > > I don't believe this in any way, shape or form. No RIR would require a > member to monitor, and record said monitoring data and supply it to an RIR > on demand. I'd like to see some form of documentary evidence of this taking > place. Again, your track record in knowingly and intentionally sharing > false information doesn't help you. You also must have a thing about poor > analogies, I can't see how comparing a water company threatening to cut > supply if you don't install a camera in your bedroom, to an RIR recovering > resource holdings for failure to provide information. Perhaps if the water > company was asking for proof that you had installed water-saving devices in > your home otherwise they would cut supply would seem like a more reasonable > analogy, but where do cameras come into it? See how laughable it is? > > I don't think it's just AFRINIC that claimed you took 6.2m IP addresses > away from the AFRINIC service region. The claims have been substantiated > through the current locations in which they are being announced. I am of > the view (as I am sure many others would be too) that you knowingly > received the resources with the intention to use them in another service > region. In your remarks, you stated that Cloud Innovation has brought into > the AFRINIC service region "at least one additional /8". Would you care to > elaborate on the origins of said resources? Further, based on pricing from > your own website, you appear to profit anywhere between $50,734,300.16 and > $80,329,441.28 USD from introducing an alleged /8 into the AFRINIC service > region. Even by reducing those figures by 25% and that's still a > substantial amount. So please, quit with the "I'm helping the community" > storyline. It's got holes in it so big one could fit 8 freight trains > through side by side... > *I never deny my wealth, but it has no relevance to you or the subject in discussion. * *Being rich is not a crime, and in fact if all your problem with me hence consist shifting away from topic in discussion just because of your jealousy, I would simply suggest you work hard in your life and over come this mental problem.* *As for bring in IP into afrinic region, it’s quite simple, afrinic gets all it’s IP from IANA based on need provided by its members, by bring in afrinic additional 6 million Need, afrinic therefore be able to justify additional /8 allocation from IANA.* *It’s simply how global allocation works.* > The NRO did not request the Mauritian Supreme Court to "basically, to > treat it legally as a part of the government" or to "give it immunity > status". In an open letter[6] to The Hon. Alan Ganoo (being the Minister > of Foreign Affairs, Regional Integration and International Trade) and The > Hon. Maneesh Gobin (being the Attorney General) posted to the NRO website > and signed by Paul Wilson, John Curran, Oscar Robles and Hans Petter Hollen > stated "AFRINIC has repeatedly asked for recognition from Mauritius of > it as an international organization". I don't know how you derived what > you said from what they wrote. It's simply incomprensible by any > right-minded person. > *Again disinformation.* *NRO’s request to be international organization later revealed by Mauritius government’s rejection letter to afrinic to be based on a specific law in Mauritius for UN organizations, in that law specifically mentioned ITU.* *https://www.nrs.help/post/is-afrinic-going-to-become-a-specialized-agency-of-the-united-nation <https://www.nrs.help/post/is-afrinic-going-to-become-a-specialized-agency-of-the-united-nation>* *Original document can be found above.* > The world as we know it, does not have a single internet. It is derived of > many different nations, many different networks, many different operators, > who each play a unique and vital role in maintaining the internet that it > is today. To state that we have a single internet is false in every > particular. RIR leaders (be it the relevant councils for each RIR, the > equivalent persons to APNIC's Director-General, whomever you choose to pick > today) have not, and I highly doubt will ever, start seeking immunity from > their relevant governments. > *Eddy has done it as public document, and the other four helped him.* *They failed, never the less, they tried.* > Onto your "Market 101"... > > I find it hard to believe that you have AI which can detect if I have a > "very good network without much abuse". I too, can create a script that can > look at RBLs (provided I have consent to use a script in such a manner from > the RBL operators) and slap an AI sticker on it. > *We have no intention to market it, since it’s more of checks for **customers, while I won’t going to technical details of it, but it’s not complicated with existing open source model training by our extensive data.* *AI or not cloud innovation range still maintains one of lowest abuse rate among similar size network.* *And again how’s it even relevant to the discussion here.* If you intend on stating that there are companies out there who are indeed > stockpiling IP resources, don't you think it's in the best interests of the > internet to call them out? Surely for someone who is in support of a "free > internet" you go against what these people are doing and will call them out > for doing so. > *No, I don’t think so.* *Anyone with sufficient knowledge of the market knows who they are, it’s not secret, it’s very obvious actually.* *And I don’t believe free internet has anything to do with market behaviors, in fact, free market allows people to buy even stockpile things they want, it is part of free internet.* *As i explained in my last letter, I see nothing wrong with their behavior in a free internet with free market, in fact their behavior might even eventually accelerate the deployment of IPv6. * > I'm going to copy and paste my reply to Dilip that I sent last night, as > you seem to have used the same analogy he did with housing. "Real estate, > while it may be a finite resource based on habitable land, isn't comparable > to IP resource leasing. Your logic in comparing the buying and subsequent > leasing of real estate to IP resources is seriously flawed". You can't > compare yourself to a "low-income housing provider". The internet has > already started a shift towards IPv6. Take a look at an AusNOG post from > Sunny Yeung dated 03 August 2016[7] that announced that Telstra is > transitioning to a dual-stack IP network for their mobile services. On 02 > June 2021, Russell Langton updated the list with further (and excellent) > news[8] that South Australia, Western Australia and New South Wales had > been successfully migrated to IPv6 single-stack networks. So, it seems that > the heavy-hitters of the global telecommunications industry are already > commencing the rollout of single-stack IPv6 with great success, and they > ought to be highly commended for it. Once IPv6 is widely adopted by the > internet community, IPv4 (I doubt it will become redundant, but I believe) > will not be as frequently used. > > Finally, in reference to JJ's e-mail to APNIC-talk dated 12 August 2023 at > 19:17 (UTC +10), he stated that "Dr. Felter's commentary was not a legal > indictment but rather a thought-provoking analysis that triggered a > necessary conversation about potential inefficiencies within APNIC's > structure" is false. The minutes from the Executive Council Meeting that > took place on 26-27 May 2022[10] under point 20 on the agenda being Any > Other Business, Jeremy Harrison presented for the EC's consideration a > draft structure diagram on a new governance arrangement. Further, under > Resolution 2022-27 that was passed during the meeting that took place on 07 > December 2022, "The EC resolved, subject to a new company being incorporated > for the purpose of acting as trustee of the sole share in APNIC Pty Ltd > (Corporate Trustee), that it agrees to the change of the trustee of the sole > share in APNIC Pty Ltd from Paul Wilson to the Corporate Trustee and > authorizes > the EC Members to sign all documents necessary to give effect to this > resolution". The claim that Dr Felter "spurred a critical evaluation that > contributes to a more robust APNIC" is very hard to support as his report > is dated 25 February 2023, some 2.5 months after the resolution was passed > to form APNIC EC Limited. > > Regards, > Christopher H. > > References: > [1] Shadow Directors, De Facto Directors, and the legal implications of > both - > https://chamberlains.com.au/shadow-directors-de-facto-directors-and-the-legal-implications-of-both/ > [2] Reserved IP addresses - > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserved_IP_addresses > [3] List of assigned /8 IPv4 address blocks - > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assigned_/8_IPv4_address_blocks > [4] July 2023 IPv4 Auction Sales Report (IPv4.Global) - > https://ipv4.global/reports/july-2023-ipv4-auction-sales-report-copy-141/ > [5] AFRINIC Bylaws 2012 - > https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/bylaws/afrinic-bylaws-2012-en.pdf > [ <https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/bylaws/afrinic-bylaws-2012-en.pdf>6] NRO > Letter to Mauritius Government - > https://www.nro.net/wp-content/uploads/NRO-Letter-to-Mauritius-Government-FINAL.pdf > [7] Telstra IPv6 Wireless Enablement - > https://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/2016-August/036106.html > [8] Telstra IPv6 Wireless Enablement IPv6 Single Stack - > https://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/2021-June/044978.html > [9] Page 7 of Legal Opinion on Regional Internet Registry (RIR) > governance with a focus on APNIC - > https://www.larus.net/assets/frontend/images/Legal_Opinion_on_Regional_Internet_Regis.pdf > [10] APNIC EC Meeting Minutes (dated 26-27/05/2022) - > https://www.apnic.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/FINAL_merged_EC_meeting_minutes_20220526-27_public.pdf > ------------------------------ > *From:* Lu Heng <h...@anytimechinese.com> > *Sent:* Monday, August 14, 2023 3:15 PM > *To:* APNIC TALK <apnic-talk@lists.apnic.net> > *Subject:* [apnic-talk] Why RIR at turning point of history and need > reform > > > Hi Colleagues: > > RIRs were created to solve a technical problem at the time with no > meaningful financial implications and few political implications to the > management of IP number resources. The primary concern was a consistent > unified registry registering unique addresses. > > > > Since commercialization of IP addresses more than a decade ago, IP > addresses evolved from strictly a technical resource(with an effectively > unlimited supply) to a major financial and political issue where IPv4 > address registrations have a collective value in excess of 200 billion > dollars. > > > > To put it simply, scarcity increases cost, higher cost + ability to > control a scarce resource creates power, power leads to politics and > corruption unless strict and proper checks and balances are in place. > > > > To date, checks and balances on the RIRs have been rather limited, with > examples > such as APNIC being registered as one man company for 25 years. > > > > AFRINIC, being another example of it. Its directors violate the bylaws > and disregard entire membership[1] > <#m_-7469140418762526238_x_footnote_020144116891177455>, management > steals IP addresses and sells them on the black market[2] > <#m_-7469140418762526238_x_footnote_08024325403354441>, while the ex-CEO > even claims to have power to monitor the entire continent's internet and > police its content[3] > <#m_-7469140418762526238_x_footnote_0009713572599848508>. > > > > I know some of the folks here blame me for what happened to AFRINIC, but > that's like blaming the doctor for pointing out you have cancer. Instead > of treating the cancer, you try to eliminate the doctor. Cloud Innovation > has released most of AFRINIC ex-CEO's claims in its website: > https://cloudinnovation.org/ under section "Notice", anyone can read it > if you are so interested. > > > > While AFRINIC's claim is not relevant to this list in particular, some > reference can be argued on this governance change, and since some people in > this list insist on taking a particular interest in me, rather than > discuss the governance change, I will share some main points here: > > > > AFRINIC's ex CEO, Eddy, wants Cloud Innovation to do three things: > > > > 1. Report every change in IP usage and re-justify it, every single time. > > > > If every time a web server turns into a VPN server needs approval from > AFRINIC, that repeated at continental level, AFRINIC will be in a > position to approve (or deny) every address registration on the internet, > from hosting to home user, and AFRINIC will have power to de-register > anyone who does not comply, hence taking that company, individual, or > even a nation effectively off of the internet. > > > This is god-like power. > > > > 2. Use IP addresses within the AFRINIC service region. > > > > While there is no policy in the policy manual requiring IP addresses to be > used anywhere, just like other RIRs, Eddy rely on the bylaw clause 6.1 > claiming all IP need to be used geographically in AFRINIC service region, > the reality is 6.1 says nothing about IP usage but only the membership > requirement. > > > > Geographic restrictions also means RIR claims to have power to check and > audit the location of your network, an overstepping from its bookkeeper > functions. > > > > 3. Monitor every host in its IP range and report past 5 years of > monitoring data to AFRINIC. > > > > It simply breaks all privacy laws in all countries. > > > In Summary, Eddy leveraged AFRINIC's monopoly in the registration database > and made unlawful demands based on such monopoly, very much like your water > company tells you if you don't put a camera in your bedroom for them to > view, they will cut your water supply. > > > > And AFRINIC Claim one thing: > > > > Cloud Innovation takes 6 million IP away from Africa. > > > > The reality is, because AFRINIC gets all it's IP from IANA on it's > member's collective technical need, by bringing in AFRINIC 6 million IP > additional need, Cloud Innovation in fact bought AFRINIC at least one > additional /8 or 16 million IPs. > > > Cloud Innovation in fact brings more than 10 Million IP to AFRICA. > > > > Above are the details of the dispute, while it does not matter to the > APNIC region to a certain extent, it does show how much damage a rogue > RIR management can do to the internet. > > > > Paul Wilson signed a letter last year, while he was the NRO Chair, called > NRO's letter to Mauritius government, calling on the Mauritius government > to treat AFRINIC as a united national organization and give it immunity > status, basically, to treat it legally as a part of the government. > > > > This is where I realize the danger of the single internet we currently > have.* If RIR leaders collectively start seeking immunity from > governments, completely abandon the bottom up, community based approach, > you will have **an institution so powerful that all governments will want > to seek control. Ultimately, this will not only wrest control of the RIRs > from their respective communities, but the vast division between > governments will, in all probability lead to a fragmentation of the > internet and duplication of the address space.* > > > Governance reform in RIR can improve its accountability and restore power > to members, which is an important first step. > > > > A bit of Market 101 on the stockpile of IP addresses for those who may be > interested: > > > > LARUS is a leasing provider, it's in our interest to lease all of our IP > out, it's against our interest to stockpile any IPs, and for pricing info, > you can check https://www.larus.net/ipv4/new , pricing is available even > without an account, no need to guess.（FWIW, you do get discount if our AI > detects you are very good network without much abuse) > > > > There are, however, large companies that do stockpile large amount of IP > address, and they are the driving force behind market price, the logic is > simple, there are limited amount of IPv4, every IP you bought is one your > competitor cannot not buy, if IPv6 proven to be failure, whoever holds > more IP wins the cloud war, and wining cloud war is everything for some of > the biggest and wealthiest companies on earth, certainly whatever IPv4 > cost today is nothing compared to that. Don't get me wrong, all of them are > also betting on IPv6 at the same time, it's simply an insurance policy for > those big guys, they want to win both ways. > > > > There is nothing wrong with that, if IPv4 price can justify market > value(i.e the cost to connect outweighs the cost of not connecting), then > we still have IPv4 internet, people can not afford to buy, they can lease, > just like the real world housing market(hence LARUS is low income housing > provider). And if IPv4 price can not justify its value(i.e its cost > outweighs its benefits), then people will all move to IPv6, leaving those > large corporations with some very expensive and useless numbers. > > > > For better or worse, markets are the only way humans have found to > distribute limited resources in anything remotely resembling an equitable > manner. The market will exist, whether we want it or not. It is far > better to focus on properly regulating it than to attempt to deny it. > > > With more than 10 years experience with an IPv4 market, it's simply too > late to put that Genie back in the bottle. > > ------------------------------ > [1] > > Multiple exampes in the conduct of AFRINIC elections over the past decade > as well as other board actions > [2] > > > https://mybroadband.co.za/news/internet/383902-r1-3-billion-worth-of-ip-addresses-stolen-in-brazen-heist.html > [3] > > Statements of Eddy Kayahura while was CEO of AFRINIC, original PDF > available at cloudinnovation.org > -- -- Kind regards. Lu
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